01-07-2004 23:04									#151
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DeepO

I'm not sure if you knew this or not, but forting units increases points on the f3 scale, fractionally, but it adds up. Not sure if our wall is forted or not. So if we see that upgrading turns us average, we can unfort everything and drop down a bit.

	01-07-2004 23:17									#152
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I knew, yes. Unforting would keep us weaker longer. However, are we going to the trouble of unforting all our units, and hitting the space bar over 100 times each turn?

Besides, I'm half considering to use the cash to upgrade our defenses right now, so we step from weak to strong in one shot. That way, they have no way of knowing how many units we're building in one turn... The other option is to postpone it for as long as possible...

DeepO

	01-07-2004 23:21									#153
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isn't there a sentry command?

And I don't want you to hit spacebar 200x turn, we need that thumb or index finger healthy for the upcoming war

but you're right, best bet is mass upgrade. I think Lego will still be strong, due to mass producing units for the past 30 turns, but we'll see..

	01-07-2004 23:50									#154
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isn't sentry considered fortified? I assumed so...

Lego isn't mass producing units, though. They needed factories and coal plants to stay ahead of us in production. And now, they are working on hospitals... most likely there were a few units build, but I doubt they are really going all out... unless they planned to invade us the moment marines are available

DeepO

	02-07-2004 00:02									#155
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I don't think sentry registers as fortified in the f3 valuation, but not sure. Perhaps some investigation is in order, I will see what I can dig up...

	10-07-2004 02:16									#156
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OK, I have caught up. DeepO, sorry again for disappearing just when you needed this plan.

Give me a little bit to re-visit some notes I made last month, and then I will start working up a spreadsheet that will show number of units needed by type and location per turn.

Do you anticipate shield output, as indicated on the last posted F1 screenshot (my compliments on that as well ), to change appreciably in any city?

	12-07-2004 23:24									#157
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quote: Originally posted by Theseus OK, I have caught up. DeepO, sorry again for disappearing just when you needed this plan.

No problem, T. I hope all is well.

quote: Do you anticipate shield output, as indicated on the last posted F1 screenshot (my compliments on that as well ), to change appreciably in any city?

Not really. WoC will get to 80 spt, but that's about it. However, for land units, the moment we discover tanks, I'm considering to mobilize... that will give some 33% increase in shield output. It should get all our 40 and 30 spt cities able to make 50 spt, and our 3 80-spt cities to 100spt.

One thing, though: keep some reserves. The past few turns, we've been hit with pollution, which makes precise planning difficult. we've lost a couple of units, even if I try to compensate as best as I can.

Thanks for picking it up, Theseus. I'm looking forward to the plan, and don't forget Lego will be able to send marines in 6 more turns...

DeepO

	20-07-2004 02:50									#158
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okay, seeing as nobody else does it, I'll start. Please, someone, take over, I do not have the time to accurately plan our defenses!

I'm looking at turn 225, which is the last turn we will be safe from invasion, as it is the first turn Lego can have access to Marines. (but they're behind us in turn order). Primary goal is to get ourselves organized at T225. After that, our defenses will only tighten...

Currently (end of T220), we've got the following situation:
(- 8 spear, 27 pikes, 8 knights, 8 cat, 12 MI, 2 galley)
- 34 rifle (+2.5/turn)
- 12 galleon
- 4 destroyer (+1.83/turn)
- 7 transports (+1/turn)

we've got some 7000 gold to spend on upgrades (ND&RP will sponsor our deficit spending for the moment)
8 spears cost 120g to rifle, 160 to inf
27 pikes cost 100g to rifle, 140 to inf
34 rifle cost 40g to inf
8 cat cost 120g to art
12 MI cost 100g to guerilla

I propose to upgrade our spears, pikes to rifle and cat to art asap. Further, we leave enough money in our treasury to upgrade at least part of those rifles to infs. MI to guerilla has lowest priority (and we can use some obsolete units as well, see further on).
So 8*120 + 27*100 +8*120 = 4620g.
69*40 = 2760g
in total, to get everything to infs, we need 7380g.

this more or less works out. we'll build an additional 10 rifles before 225, so in total we'll have 79 rifles tp upgrade, or a total of 7780g... if we sell techs to ND (and the moment Lego has them, there is no point not to sell them to ND), we'll get there easily.

so, our force situtation in 225, freshly upgraded our rifles to infs, will be:
- 79 infs
- 8 arts
- 12 MI
- (knights I assume are being used to rush stuff in the mean time)
- 12 galleon
- 11 transports
- ~12 destroyers
- maybe 2 battleships, or 2 carriers.

pic is coming with our land situation, will have to upload it first.

DeepO

	20-07-2004 03:09									#159
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The following colours are used:
- Red: 14 coastal cities
- yellow: 6 non-coastal cities
- Blue: 10 mountains on Lego's side, considered to be highest risk
- Magenta: 9 mountains and hills on GoW/ND side. considered to be a bit less of a risk
- Green: 5 mountain / hill in RP which we're protecting
- Cyan: 5 coastal resources we want to protect. Not necessarily by our best troops, but protect them from bombardement. When bombers on carriers and BS are also a danger, these cyan regions would have to be extended to incvlude 2 more tiles

The red tiles are obviously our main concern. Elipolis is a bit of a special case, and Hurricane is also more at risk then the others. I would ideally put 5 defenders in those two cities, and 3 in the rest.
2*5+12*3 = 46

Yellow cities can have a token defense. 1 defender each for the moment
1*6 = 6

Blue mountains are necessary to protect, preferrably with 2 defenders each (1 inf and 1 MI as don't have enough units)
2*10 = 10 (+ 10)

Magenta and green are lower risk, but still need a defender each
1*14 = 14

and cyan is simply to be protected with some units, nothing too fancy.
1*5 = 5 obsoletes

So, in total, I've got 46+6+10(+10)+14+(5) = 76+15 obsoletes.
this works out relatively well with our available troops.
the 3 extra infs should go to blue 8,9,10.

The moment we spot incoming ships, we can shift this, of course, so that the threatened cities get more defense. But in no case would I give up the 2 defenders in unthreatened cities, nor the token defender in non-coastal cities.

Arts should go to the cities on the Lego side, and to Elipolis.

And all tanks we build should be evenly placed in our cities, until we've got 2 in each of them. Then, it's time to start filling our blue, green and cyan defenses as well.

Oh, and this still assumes a good scouting grid, which we don't really have right now...

Comments please. I hope this framework will make it easier to add to our plan!

DeepO

	20-07-2004 03:34									#160
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Update on our defense pic. The black blocks denote radar towers. As it is now, there is minimal overlap, while covering all tiles (a radar tower has a range of 2, right? That also includes diagonals, so 77 of the tower is also protected, right?).

I'm half considering to make it so that all cities at least, and all blue and magenta points are covered by 2 towers, instead of one.

Can radar towers be destroyed by bombardment? I know they can be pillaged by entering the square, so apart from one (Inchon9), all of them are non-coastal...

I'm counting 11 radar towers, which we can build in turn 230 (possibly 231). We've got plenty of workers left, also enough to build towers in RP territory, or to gift our workers to RP to build them in their territory

DeepO

	20-07-2004 03:39									#161
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Oh, one final remark: unless there is any change of plans before the next turn arrives (which I would welcome! Please comment on this, even with comments that might seem trivial...), I'll start on this plan next turn. There is hardly any reason to keep our sea wall intact right now, we can already start on our defense post-marines (and we should start upgrading if we want to be ready).

I can wait another 2 turns in case it's necessary, though. But turn 223 is upgrade time at the utmost latest, so that in turn 225, everything is properly foritied where it is supposed to be

DeepO

	20-07-2004 06:46									#162
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best to upgrade all to rifles and arties now, I think.

	20-07-2004 07:41									#163
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Yes I would agree get those rifles asap to inf.

	20-07-2004 13:49									#164
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If we want to keep the high ground protected, I think it's going to be a two-turn procedure... but I'll start on it next turn.

And I will try to keep an eye on the F3 screen, to spot when we turn average to Lego, and strong to GoW-ND

DeepO

	20-07-2004 20:27									#165
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something else I was thinking off: ideally, we would want to have all radar towers not adjacent to coastal cities. In case a coastal city falls, it would give the tower to the invader, where as if the tower falls outside of the new borders, it would still help us.

However, there's a bit of a problem there: sometimes we can't reach all tiles unless towers are close to coastal cities. We can however include a few more towers, so when cities fall, our units are still helped by other tower's defenses

DeepO

	20-07-2004 20:29									#166
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question: does anyone know if radar towers also help at sea?

DeepO

	22-07-2004 03:16									#167
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I expect that the radar towers do reach two squares diagonally, like arty bombard. I'll post the questions on sea-reach and bombardability on the general forum.

Nice map, DeepO, and an elegant approach - start with the units we'll have and decide where to place them, rather than starting by trying to guess what we'll be attacked with, which is what I tried to do and got a headache over.

I say just upgrade. After all, our first priority is not to be invaded, so showing our defences might help discourage attack.

	22-07-2004 04:12									#168
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I never used towers, so I hve no idea if they affect coastal tiles and naval units.

We could make them with excess workers at the last minute, since we have rails. Just make them in cities that will be under attack. We should not need many, if we were to lose a fair number of cities from an invasion, it would be lights out anyway.

	22-07-2004 04:21									#169
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workers - towers: I want to have the defense added to the cities when under marine attack as well... and we currently have a surplus of workers. I'm half considering to stop Cyclone as a worker pump, and start building explorers there instead.

As to the approach I took: It's not ideal, but it'll have to do. It doesn't say much about whether we've got enough forces. Also, this is the curernt situation, with too few attackers (only defenders), but this will better soon. However, the moment we invade, our defense will weaken, as our infs will join the war on Lego. Let's hope everything works out, and we've got Mechs by that time.

Oh, but this still leaves us wanting a naval defense plan. One of the big questions I've got is whether, and how much subs we need, as I want to start building them next turn, or the one thereafter.

DeepO

	22-07-2004 04:29									#170
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I say yes to a handful of subs - as indicated on sleepy's naval chart. The enemy could eliminate all stacks of destroyers, but with some subs around we can still see where they're coming from.

	22-07-2004 04:30									#171
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oops mistake

	22-07-2004 13:30									#172
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How many subs... 3, 4? Keep in mind that ideally, each sub extra is one destroyers less (and we've got 21 destroyers planned)

DeepO

	22-07-2004 14:11									#173
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Looking at the map, 4 would cover the east coast, 3 would leave the southernmost area uncovered. As it's tight with the builds, maybe we can only afford 3.

	22-07-2004 16:09									#174
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I'll aim for 4... with 4 knights, that will take only 4 turns in WoC, so we won't lose too many destroyers. I'm going to change one destroyer build to a carrier then, to compensate.

Oh, do we need BS, or not?

DeepO

	22-07-2004 17:32									#175
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My basic thoughts:

The red and blue tiles are the key. Honestly, I think we should concentrate nearly all of our forces on those tiles. More in the coastal cities on the east side than on the west.

We simply cannot defend everything everywhere well enough. It's impossible. Therefore, I suggest we concentrate on the east coast. We should defend the west, just less (if Hurricane gets 8 infantries, O. Gale gets 2 or 3... you get the idea). Elipolis gets the most troops of any tile besides Hurricane.

The cyan tiles... I agree they need bombard protection, but maybe 1 guerrila each. I don't think we can afford more.

-Arrian

	22-07-2004 19:27									#176
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I should have posted a picture after putting all troops where they were supposed to go. It's currently like on the map, with even distribution of forces West and East in the red cities.

The cyan tiles currently have either a MI or a knight. I'm not sure on upgrading the MI to guerrila, it's costly. Guerrila doesn't treat all squares as roads, do they? Otherwise we could use them in our invasion...

DeepO

	22-07-2004 19:28									#177
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Arrian, do you advocate putting only 2 defenders on the West, to have 4 defenders on the East? More is currently impossible, as we don't have the forces...

DeepO

	22-07-2004 22:06									#178
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When I read turn and saw workers still queued, I wondered why? I am all for building anything else now. Use soem of the excess to make towers.

I still am not real fond of subs and would rather have DD's.

	22-07-2004 22:16									#179
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towers will have to wait for radio, though. But that will still leave some 20 extra workers right now. I agree, and should have thought about it earlier, that we better build explorers or something similar in Cyclone.

If I don't play the turn (maybe it can wait until Sunday), just leave Cyclone on workers one turn longer. Some things have to be changed with the improvements, to give a few more shields to Tornado as well.

BTW, going into mob will be a small nightmare economically, where a couple cities will have to grow, and a couple will have to shrink. We might need workers for that transition as well.

As to subs: I see some use for them, but personally wouldn't build 4. for me, most use comes from detecting incoming Lego invasions when we're on their land, not from defending while we haven't invaded yet. As a feeling, 3 subs would probably be enough for that, and maybe even 2 would do... I like destroyers as well as they're allround.

DeepO

	22-07-2004 23:01									#180
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DeepO, don't forget that if worst comes to worst, we can disband any workers we have left over

and when do you want to stop being turnplayer? I seriously doubt that anyone could take over before mob and still get the cities production right, so dou you want to swap when you have finished tweaking the economy?

RE: defence: do we even need subs if they are going to be used for detection? can't we use fighters and recon? we would see them at least 2 turns out from Stormia, although it would cost more shields (around 500 more).