12-05-2004 01:15									#31
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Not to mention that the serb region is a complete mess now. there have been lots of reports of kidnapped women working in brothels kfor troops visit regularly. I think AI published a report recently.

About that women kidnapping that is beyond my mind. As in iraq as if in anarchy the first thing to do would be to kidnap women and force them to prostitution.

	12-05-2004 01:20									#32
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quote: Originally posted by GePap Hello! Do you rember Serbia? We bombed Serbia for 70 days plus trying to get them to give in- in those 70 days we failed. Most of their equipment was not destroyed, nor command and control. Whic is what you claim we can do. The effectiveness of the campaign you believe us capable of can only come based on the amount of intelligence we have- decoy tanks, or placing vehicles in strcutures and such deceptions work. All the Iranians have to do is move vehicles to areas in which stuff can be hidden easily (much like the serbs stuck tanks in rail tunnels), and if we can;t see it, we can;t hit it. C3 is even easier to move, just move it into civilian buildings, or unknown underground bunkers, so forth. As for attacks on civilian infrastructure-that is another level issue. But of course, the political fallout from doing something so monumentally stupid as to attack the civlian and economic infrastructure of another sovereing state by us is such that it would rule out such an action from the get go.

THE ONLY POINT I'M TRYING TO MAKE IS THAT IRAN WOULD GET *****SLAPPED IF THEY ATTACKED ISRAEL...

I don't know why you are trying to debate something I'm not talking about.

And I do remember Serbia... we got *****SLAPPED BY NATO!

	12-05-2004 01:45									#33
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Well, you are wrong on that as well-if Israel attacked Iran and Iran struck back the US would not attack Iran- Israel simply got what it risked by its action. The only caveat is if Iran struck with WMD's if Israel had not struck Iran first with them.

	12-05-2004 01:50									#34
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quote: Originally posted by GePap and if we can;t see it, we can;t hit it.

Ask Striker.

	12-05-2004 03:13									#35
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Didn't our Patriots have an easy time with Iraq's missiles in the first Gulf War?

	12-05-2004 03:17									#36
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No. Iraq's missiles simply sucked. ( guess what? early 60's techs, )

	12-05-2004 03:20									#37
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Are Iran's missiles on mobile launcers, like the SCUD's were, or stationary. If the latter, surely they wouldn't be particularly difficult to take out.

	12-05-2004 03:23									#38
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mobile.

But we have ATBMs. I sure hope we won't have to put those to the test.

	12-05-2004 03:24									#39
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quote: Originally posted by GePap A bit more, actually, it will depend on when we find them.

meaningless; totally mean

	12-05-2004 03:24									#40
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Britain shoud do it, then. I doubt they can hit England al the way from Iran

	12-05-2004 03:25									#41
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I will threaten anyone who kills a raccoon with nuclear retaliation.

	12-05-2004 03:26									#42
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not funny

	12-05-2004 03:28									#43
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DUH -- I posted it, so of course it's not funny.

	12-05-2004 03:28									#44
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but that was!

	12-05-2004 03:31									#45
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no it wasn't!

	12-05-2004 03:32									#46
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quote: Originally posted by GePap Hello! Do you rember Serbia? We bombed Serbia for 70 days plus trying to get them to give in- in those 70 days we failed. Most of their equipment was not destroyed, nor command and control. Whic is what you claim we can do.

Do you remember the first Gulf War? We effectively destroyed their command and control in the first 48 hours. Disrupting their supply lines was absurdly easy. It was just getting their forces on the ground under 50% that took a while.

quote: The effectiveness of the campaign you believe us capable of can only come based on the amount of intelligence we have- decoy tanks, or placing vehicles in strcutures and such deceptions work. All the Iranians have to do is move vehicles to areas in which stuff can be hidden easily (much like the serbs stuck tanks in rail tunnels), and if we can;t see it, we can;t hit it. C3 is even easier to move, just move it into civilian buildings, or unknown underground bunkers, so forth.

Why do we have to hit their tanks? Tanks can't do much if they're sitting in a building. We don't have to invade.

	12-05-2004 03:38									#47
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You idiots, yes would could destroy their conventional military, but we wouldn't be able to destroy the unconvential one which is what we are dealing with in Iraq unless we carpet bombed the whole country.

That would totally destablize the region in an even more ****ed up way the Bush has already done.

	12-05-2004 04:00									#48
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Actually, destroying their conventional military would be virtually impossible through air power. What we could do would be disrupt command and control and supply lines enough to make them unable to do anything (besides which, you don't have to kill even 50% of a unit to render it impotent). Why would we care about their "unconventional" military? Guerillas generally can't lob ballistic missiles hundreds of miles into Israel

	12-05-2004 06:49									#49
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quote: Originally posted by Cruddy What exactly is the mine clearance capability of US naval vessels? Last time I looked, zero... US Navy uses helos for that role - which aren't terribly effective in open waters.

Not exactly.

http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ship/mcm-1.htm

quote: Avenger class ships are designed as mine hunter-killers capable of finding, classifying and destroying moored and bottom mines. The mission of MCM 1 class ships is to detect, classify and neutralize all known and projected types of influence and contact mines. There are three primary mission objectives: Minehunting , Mine Neutralization, and Mine Sweeping. The MCM 1 performs precise navigation and clears minefields by sweeping moored, magnetic and acoustic influence mines. The MCM 1 also conducts coordinated operations with airborne and other mine countermeasure forces. This is the largest US Navy Minesweeper to date. The last three MCM ships were purchased in 1990, bringing the total to 14 fully deployable, oceangoing Avenger class ships. These ships use sonar and video systems, cable cutters and a mine detonating device that can be released and detonated by remote control. They are also capable of conventional sweeping measures. The ships are constructed of wood covered with Glass Reinforced Plastic (GRP) sheathing. They are the first large mine countermeasures ships built in the United States in nearly 27 years.

	12-05-2004 07:23									#50
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quote: Guerillas generally can't lob ballistic missiles hundreds of miles into Israel

he said something smart!

good job!

	12-05-2004 07:45									#51
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quote: Originally posted by Kucinich Do you remember the first Gulf War? We effectively destroyed their command and control in the first 48 hours. Disrupting their supply lines was absurdly easy. It was just getting their forces on the ground under 50% that took a while.

Actually, we never took the entire forces under 50% (and this comes from one of the professors who has access to the Military's own studies after the war of the effectiveness of the air war)-certain units, certainly.

quote: Why do we have to hit their tanks? Tanks can't do much if they're sitting in a building. We don't have to invade.

Without invading they will still get nukes. Hence the air campaing fails.

	12-05-2004 07:48									#52
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quote: Originally posted by GePap Without invading they will still get nukes. Hence the air campaing fails.

I don't know if that is entirely correct. Perhaps if they took it deep underground, but still building the infrastructure they would need would be a fairly large effort...easily detectable and disrupted.

	12-05-2004 07:59									#53
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Oh, and as for Zylka's little rant:

A modern Diesel Electirc sub is more silent than a nuclear sub, and in the world of subhunting, being quiet is the key. The Subs the Iranians have are not old WW2 types, but top of the shelf Russian deisels.

many links:

http://diodon349.com/submarines/die..._new_threat.htm

http://members.tripod.com/~fidelispark/third/sub.htm

Information on the Kilo class sub (which is what Iran bought)

http://www.naval-technology.com/projects/kilo877/

maybe next time he will educate himself before speaking like an idiot...oh wait, too late for that.

	12-05-2004 08:01									#54
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quote: Originally posted by PLATO I don't know if that is entirely correct. Perhaps if they took it deep underground, but still building the infrastructure they would need would be a fairly large effort...easily detectable and disrupted.

In the last few years, how many times did a NEW nuclear facility turn up?

Again, if we don;t know about it, there is nothing we can do to hit it, and our intelliegence has proven weak.

I will add that the notion of an air campaing on this scale without end is just silly.

	12-05-2004 08:19									#55
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quote: and in the world of subhunting, being quiet is the key. The Subs the Iranians have are not old WW2 types, but top of the shelf Russian deisels.

simply not nice

	12-05-2004 08:26									#56
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quote: Originally posted by Zylka you complete *ing moron. where exactly do you get your trite, simplistic combat concepts from - Tom Clancy and his lesser knock offs?

Why haven't you been banned yet? Maybe I should complain to management.

quote: OH YES, SILENCE IS THE SINGLE KEY IN THIS MODERN AGE OF SUBMERSIVE WARFARE. GAP FILLER DIESEL SUBMARINES WITH SLIGHTLY LOWER ACOUSTIC RANGES WILL PUT UP A WONDERFUL FIGHT and moreso - you honestly think a network of four of the economic level, 20 year old, export design POS Kilos with DIESEL power (oh, so fast and combat able!) would create any sort of blockade against the US navy?

IN past naval excersices, single subs, diesel subs, have been able to get close enough to fire at American Aircraft carriers, and these are subs just as old. Who ever said blockade? What we have is a very narrow strait, and all one side has to do is choke commercial traffic down it. Only in your addled mind is this about some one on one fight.

	12-05-2004 08:31									#57
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sorry

Last edited by Zylka on 12-05-2004 at 09:38

	12-05-2004 08:34									#58
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As always, Zylka's appearance is (bound to be) short but entertaining.

	12-05-2004 08:36									#59
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quote: go ahead, complain to the management. totally suits a b*tch like you who can't stick up for himself and insists on using whatever trite bit of "knowlege" he can to paint warfare landscapes with a brush attached to his downssyndrome stricken head

Maybe for a kid like you there is no difference between been a rude ******* and debate, but the fact is NONE of your posts actually include any evidence tying to back what are essentially unsubstantiated claims that you think are self-evident, though someone who spends so much time in an altered state of mid can hardly have a great grasp on reality most of that time.

	12-05-2004 08:39									#60
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MY EVIDENCE IS NOT EVEN THERE AND MAYBE THE PROOF IS IN THE PUDDINGS FOR GEPAPSMEAR'S ARGUMENT#@$

THIS IS BECAUSE THE IRANIAN'S WOULD EASILY MAKE THE STRAITS OF HORMUZ A MESS. THEY HAVE FOUR ULTRA MODERN AND RIBBED FOR HER PLEASURE DIESEL SUBMARINES, A BAKER'S DOZEN FLOTILLA OF SUPPORTING SHELLING BOATS, AND PLENTY OF SHORE ABLE MORTAR CANNONS. THIS IS TO MUCK WITH THE US NAVY PLENTY!!