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Kaak
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Carolus.
I don't think either is okay. I disagree with changing anything about the game. and that is still not a similar comparison.
Ming.
I guess you feel i fall into that "you people" category. I did not say it was okay, merely that the arguement was weak because it was not an accurate comparison. If I thought it was okay, I would have changed my rules.txt, as Eyes tried so many times to get me to do.
~kaak
p.s. This would all go a lot smoother if y'all would actually read what is written and respont to *it* rather than trying to read into it and jumping to conclusions.
p.p.s. Iadkins...you really aren't very good at this whole analogy thing =) might i recomend a logic course or a debate class?
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Ming
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Kaak... I looked back to the old thread, and I'm not sure which of my comments you are responding too.
I was just saying that if people are going to change the rules files, the opponent should be aware of it, and agree to the changes. Otherwise, it is cheating, pure and simple.
I think you are a man of Honor and above reproach.
If I said anything that you think implied that I thought you weren't, please let me know so I can correct it. It was a pleasure to play you in the past and get my ass kicked. I know you did it an honest fashion, and I have never stated otherwise. I would still love to play you again on settings I enjoy (now refered to as "RAH rules" by many)
So please, if I have offended you anyway, that was not my intent. You are one of the best players out there, and you win fairly!
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Kaak
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No sir, you haven't offended =) i just thought the "you people" in your last post might have been directed at me, because what i said about the bad analogy might have been misconstrued as consent. no worries!
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CapTVK
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Voorburg, the Netherlands, Europe
Jan 1970
time: 05:12
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Well, this certainly was an event...
I've just read the entire thread and was mostly surprised by EoN's reaction that "it wasn't really cheating" until he dropped the charade and confessed. I've had the pleasure of playing Eyes once on a small map and I was beaten, no surprise there.
It never occured to me now, but with the confession of EvC and now Eyes (I hope you can get your life back in order Eyes), I realize we're dealing with a textbook case of trolling.
Trolls post about controversial subjects and react likewise, if people get angry and start reacting it's even better. If you've been around on usenet you'll know what I mean. The trouble with trolls is that they have extreme selfhate and want to redirect that anger onto the world. While they have a habit of antogonizing everyone they come into contact saying they despise everyone and everything, they really despise themselves.
On the subject of cheating with the rules.txt
I now see how much nasty stuff you can do messing with the rules.txt. And I just figured out something. I heard AH say that some of Eyes cities were placed on tundra squares. I'm not saying he cheated there too, but anyone could use this trick!
[*]The host starts the game with a changed rules.txt
[*]Change the characteristics of a low resource square like tundra to 6f,6t,6s (we're going big time here  ). Normally I don't even bother clicking on tundra in city range or in the civelopedia, or settle near tundra at all unless I have to, so the chance of getting caught is slim.
[*]Host places a few (2-3) cities near or on tundra and starts churning out units.
[*]After 15-25 turns or so the hosts feels he's pushing his luck, so he 'drops' the connection.
[*]The ex-host asks if he (this time with original rules.txt) or the other player could host. The other player would start up the game with the original rules.txt our cheater is in the clear with tons of settlers,science, gold and other benefits!
There's really no way to catch a cheater this way, you would have to check all the cities in all the saves. And because you're checking with the original rules.txt you won't even know he was cheating! The only thing you would have is some vague evidence, that something doesn't 'fit' with those 3 cities near the poles.
<font size=1 face=Arial color=444444>[This message has been edited by CapTVK (edited October 03, 2000).]</font>
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Kaak
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guys, eyes did nothing more than change the riot factor. He liked building in the artic because of trade from seals, etc. I told Eyes a long time ago to use all the rescources. which might explain him building on tundra. I personally have never seen him build on tundra unless it was near a valuable resource.
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Kaak's assumption:
<center><table width=80%><tr><td><font color=000080 face="Verdana" size=2><font size="1">quote:
<img src=/forums/"/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1>
</font><font size=1>Originally posted by Kaak on 10-03-2000 10:07 AM</font>
No sir, you haven't offended =) i just THOUGHT the "you people" in your last post might have been directed at me, because what i said about the bad analogy might have been misconstrued as consent. no worries!
<img src=/forums/"/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1></font></td></tr></table></center>
Kaak's policy:
<center><table width=80%><tr><td><font color=000080 face="Verdana" size=2><font size="1">quote:
<img src=/forums/"/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1>
</font><font size=1>Originally posted by Kaak on 10-03-2000 9:33 AM</font>
I GUESS you feel i fall into that "you people" category..........
This would all go a lot smoother if y'all would actually read what is written and respont to *it* rather than trying to read into it and jumping to conclusions.........
might i recomend a logic course or a debate class?
<img src=/forums/"/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1></font></td></tr></table></center>
ROTFLMAO!
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*THE DEITY*
#8388924
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<center><table width=80%><tr><td><font color=000080 face="Verdana" size=2><font size="1">quote:
<img src=/forums/"/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1>
</font><font size=1>Originally posted by Kaak on 10-03-2000 02:21 PM</font>
guys, eyes did nothing more than change the riot factor.
<img src=/forums/"/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1></font></td></tr></table></center>
Well that's all he admits to. How did he find my cities so fast?
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Don't worry, I won't tell anyone. Your secret is safe with me.
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Kaak
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AH: the same way i do.
iadkins: it is amzing how people will take what you say and manipulate it out of context.
I said:
<center><table width=80%><tr><td><font color=000080 face="Verdana" size=2><font size="1">quote:
<img src=/forums/"/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1>
</font>your analogy is bad in that what eyes did had the same effect on both players. it did not give one player an advantage that another player did not have.
<img src=/forums/"/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1></font></td></tr></table></center>
Ming posted:
<center><table width=80%><tr><td><font color=000080 face="Verdana" size=2><font size="1">quote:
<img src=/forums/"/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1>
</font>It's simply unbelievable that people think that changing the rules file AND NOT TELLING YOUR OPPONENT is OK because it effects both people. What a joke.
<img src=/forums/"/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1></font></td></tr></table></center>
I realize that you are a little slower than most of the others around here and lack the ability to see the logical connection between the two statements. Sorry, next time, I will make sure to post a less complicated version for you =·Þ
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Spider
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k-town
Jul 2000
time: 05:12
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As far as I'm concerned there's a whole lot of smoke around Kaak whether he concedes the point or not. If you hang out by fires your going to get smokey.
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Crustacian
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of Idaho PST
Jul 1999
time: 21:12
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<center><table width=80%><tr><td><font color=000080 face="Verdana" size=2><font size="1">quote:
<img src=/forums/"/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1>
</font><font size=1>Originally posted by Carolus Rex on 10-03-2000 08:54 AM</font>
"Answer the question, Kaak, the question!" 
http://apolyton.net/forums/Forum2/HTML/001788-4.html?date=08:00
Carolus
<font size=1 face=Arial color=444444>[This message has been edited by Carolus Rex (edited October 03, 2000).]</font>
<img src=/forums/"/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1></font></td></tr></table></center>
This is a fair point really. Who really would think it fair to play with changed rules like is presented in this thread without telling anyone. If a person walked into a store with someone who secretly shop lifted but ended up getting caught, they both would go to jail, even though the one had no idea. Why knit pick over "correctness" of analogies? Mine probably sucks too,
BUTTTTTTTT the point still stands and neither Kaak or Eyes have refuted it.
Eyes seems to me to have played with modified rules text deliberately to keep a secret advantage over AH and others, or else he would not ALSO have LIED to him when AH first questioned him about some seeming discrepancies. If Eyes just found it "too teadious to mess with rioters" while playing, or innocently using this while AH had full use also of the same parameters he would not have lied. He had to be exposed first, then he coughed it up amid a flurry of BS. How uterly BOGUS.
Plus I again claim that nobody can consistantly whoop another player of similar skill level by such a huge margine. Yeah it can happen due to one reason or another at times but no one is basically unstoppable IMHO. Not in this game.
But if you take the liberty of allowing yourself some unstated edge (i.e.:cheat), maybe you can. But how much fun can that really be? And to acheave some status of top scores this way, and claim to be "basically unstoppable?!?!"
LOL.
------------------
The journey itself is the thing~Odysseus
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Kaak
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Ming, I wasn't saying that you were talking to me, i was merely showing how i drew the conclusion.
iadkins: i am not arguing that it was fair, I said it affected them both in the same way. I.E. it wasn't like AHs cities went into disorder and eye's didn't. Again, let me stress, I disagree with it, i do not think it was fair.
Spider: i realize you are new, and you don't know me, or much of anything else that goes on around here. If you don't know any better, don't post.
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Civfan
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Toronto, Canada
Sep 1999
time: 05:12
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This is to much for everyone. Its interesting how people can get too attached and emotional over a game. A game, yes a game from four years ago. With everyone doing this whats the point in this game league... Your all going to be suspicious now of everyone you play against. (do I hear the bells of Dispute on everyones game history now or what)Remember people its only a game you play. Yes its a large investment of your time when you play others and its terrible that people cheat, but its always going to be there. Theres programs used in the Zone to cheat. I've seen it first hand. The individuals have stopped the production of other civs(gold and shields) and they even given me gold...It ruins everyone having a good game and i left many games due to the fact of this, but more importantly because this program hacks into your computer. Several people's machines where effected by this system, "I talked to afew people about it" mine being one of them. The league sounds like a good idea but this issue will always be around it... It was nice while it lasted... Guess its back to the good old days of scenarios..
later
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Crustacian
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of Idaho PST
Jul 1999
time: 21:12
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Yes Kaak it is understood about the differance between a one sided inhancement of the game vs. one where all players have the same parameters, but where only one player is fully aware of what they are. I am glad you don't see it as being fair.
I don't even have a problem with those who like to cheat in what ever way they can possibly dream up, or those who change the rules text. They can do what they want really.
Once it was sugested to have a huge "cheat fest" with no holds barred where all these as Eyes called em, "nuances of the game" could be exploited to the best of any players abilities.
Wonderdogs games with the non expiring Oracle and so on were fun too but he explained the changes so folks could decide if they wanted such parameters.
I just would like to know before the game starts which parameters are being used, so I can make an intellegent choice as to whether I would like to play or not, maybe have some input as to which parameters to use, and can now see others feel the same way I do.
I prefer the standard CD as purchased in the store...not hacked off the internet. Along with the standard most recent patch available through Microprose site, and expect this to be the case with those whome I play. This is really standard isn't it? A point of reference to go from.
IMHO if a player is not using these then they are obligated to inform the others ahead of time so they can decide if they want to play.
Some games on Deity level you only get 50 gold to ransome a barb king, and a zillion other little unusual things could possible in part be explained by things in this thread. Possibly but not necissarily. But wouldn' you like to know ahead of time on something like this. Maybe no one knows and it is a regular bug, but then all continue playing with same understanding.
There are enough bugs and variables as it is in the standard versions without going beyond those to get familiar with for me.
I also agree that it is not hard to find a great game with dependable non liberty taking apponants, so keep on civing!
I love to play a truely challenging game, win or loose, and consider it a waste of time to unknowingly play in a hopelessly handicapped version without being aware.
There are many good players of the game out there, Eyes, you would benifit from playing them on a fair playing field. You would not be bored often. Sorry you are finding that acheiving balance in recreation vs responcibility so difficult right now amid whatever other of lifes "nuances" you are facing right now.
When you find this balance please post so I can maybe achieve it too
Once it was said that balance is like hanging onto a metronome time keeper used on pianos with the little upside down pendullum. Balance is glimpsed from the top center as you swing by back and forth. But hopefully in life the swings become less and less so you can glimpse it more often.
One other saying is:
When I was a young man of 20 years, I worried about what others thought of me.
When I was 40 years I did no longer care what they thought of me.
Now that I am 60 years old, I have come to see that no one was paying attention to me in the first place.
------------------
The journey itself is the thing~Odysseus
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Matthew
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Manhattan, Kansas . USA
Jan 1970
time: 05:12
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OK, Iadkins, you'e got me. I might justas well fess up here and now.
Eyes is Kaak.
And just how might I know this? Because I am Eyes and Kaak.
And Ming. Not to mention RAH, Xin, Empress, and in fact, everyone who has ever posted on this thread except you.
And just how do I seem to play as two or 3 players in one game?
Simple. I hae 12 computers, each with its own internet connection.
In fact, I am the only person you have ever played against on line.
Surprised?
It's all an elaborate ruse to get you, the only real human still alive, to join the Borg collective. Which you have already done, of course. You're just not aware of it yet.
Eyes, fare well and good luck with school.
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<center><table width=80%><tr><td><font color=000080 face="Verdana" size=2><font size="1">quote:
<img src=/forums/"/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1>
</font><font size=1>Originally posted by Matthew on 10-05-2000 02:07 AM</font>
OK, Iadkins, you'e got me. I might justas well fess up here and now.
Eyes is Kaak.
And just how might I know this? Because I am Eyes and Kaak.
And Ming. Not to mention RAH, Xin, Empress, and in fact, everyone who has ever posted on this thread except you.
And just how do I seem to play as two or 3 players in one game?
Simple. I hae 12 computers, each with its own internet connection.
In fact, I am the only person you have ever played against on line.
<img src=/forums/"/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1></font></td></tr></table></center>
That Matthew is an amazing guy, judging from this.
------------------
I didn't tell a soul. I told finbar but that doesn't invalidate the first statement.
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strategicking
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warren,mi,usa
Aug 2000
time: 05:12
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I realize most of you "apoloyton players " have no idea who i am, but i accuesed eyes of program munipulation almost a year ago. What did i get in return? I got abused in league posts, I got called nothing but a second place player. Well now we know that Eyes is nothing but a blanted cheater. Rules.txt ? What the hell is that? If you put that much energy into disecting the game files then why stop there? I think he might have munipulated the hut.txt to get all those citys from huts. and of course I believe he had two computers set up and "mapped " the board. And that is true, its true. I have not had the pleasure to play most of you, if you would like to play someone who is at the very least, capable and competant (me being modest) go to the msn game room and invite me to a game. (and i am above reproach, never cheat, dont need too, and if i lose, the sun still rises tommorow, maybe ill learn something)
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03-10-2000 17:54
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