14-05-2004 20:38									#151
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It doesn't in and of itself constitute a cogent arguement. Dressing it up as such constitutes a fallacy.

	14-05-2004 20:42									#152
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It lacks a certain comprehensiveness. Who in the right mind can afford to ignore the President of the US?

	14-05-2004 20:44									#153
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quote: Originally posted by Dauphin Even if yes, there are more pertinent fallacies being commited.

It was simply the most convenient quote I could use in my quest to bring enlightenment to Sava.

	14-05-2004 21:22									#154
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc It doesn't in and of itself constitute a cogent arguement. Dressing it up as such constitutes a fallacy.

Not so... I can lay out a logical and sound argument, but add, "you're a shithead" at the end... and I would not be commiting an ad hominem fallacy.

	14-05-2004 21:23									#155
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No, but you debase your argument and, by extension, yourself and peoples opinions of you. Not that that is any concern of yours, I'm sure.

	14-05-2004 21:25									#156
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Correct on both counts, JohnT.

	14-05-2004 21:29									#157
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I can beat everyone's fallacies with one little finger and with my other hand tied behind my back.

	15-05-2004 00:32									#158
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You can't even beat your meat (due to it's smallness ), nevertheless everyone's fallacies .

	15-05-2004 01:53									#159
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Arnelos:

quote: and I'll now go back to posting on-topic, too.

Heretic! Kill him!

	15-05-2004 08:33									#160
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I'm going to make a claim now. You guys are idiots (see below for why this is not necessarily an ad hominem attack). You don't even know what an ad hominem fallacy is. Yet you throw around the term and commit the cardinal sin of referring to a dictionary for a definition of a philosophical term.

I'll tell you - it is using an attack in place of reasoning, or it is attempting to infer something from someone's character. There are other variants.

Making the argument:

Bush is an idiot
We should not listen to idiots
Therefore: We should not listen to Bush

Is a perfectly valid argument (in the logician's sense of valid). That's because "Bush is an idiot" can be a claim about Bush's intelligence, an insult, or both. If it's used in the first sense, then the argument is by no means a fallacy. If there is good reason to think Bush an idiot, then the argument is sound.

You guys just don't know what you are talking about,

	15-05-2004 08:42									#161
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your attempts to make yourself relevant have failed agathon.

	15-05-2004 08:48									#162
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui We need more Reagan stuff, pronto!

It's slightly amusing that US conservatives view Ronald Reagan as the high point of US history in the last 100 years or so.

Poor sods.

	15-05-2004 08:52									#163
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Really? Because I know what an ad hominem fallacy actually is?

The two main types are attacking someone's character in lieu of argument. That means calling someone a bad person as a means of refuting their claim, it does not mean questioning their intelligence. The argument I gave above is a chain of reasoning that everyone uses. In fact we probably couldn't get through the day without using similar lines of reasoning.

Another form is simply throwing out an insult to change the subject. This is probably more of a rhetorical ploy than a fallacy.

Another is the one JohnT used when he said that we should discount something just because Al Franken wrote it in his book. He needed to supply better reasons for considering Franken a fraud or an idiot in order for the argument to go through.

On the other hand, making a claim that Bush is stupid is not giving an argument, any more than saying "It is raining" is an argument. It's just a claim. One could offer reasons or evidence in support of it, but there's nothing illogical about stating it. Logic pertains to relationships between propositions, not to their truth values per se.

	15-05-2004 08:59									#164
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no, because every time something about philosophy or logic or apple comes up you feel you need to interject with your "expertise" which is shoddy at best. Ive seen you humiliated in debates with people as low Asher...

I would say stick to what you know but im not sure of what that is.

	15-05-2004 09:04									#165
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Aggie is correct, that was not an ad hominem. It's only one when you attack your opponents in a debate or discussion. Or rather, it is an ad hominem unquestionably.

	15-05-2004 21:59									#166
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quote: no, because every time something about philosophy or logic or apple comes up you feel you need to interject with your "expertise" which is shoddy at best. Ive seen you humiliated in debates with people as low Asher...

That says more about your grasp of logic than mine.

I don't pretend to be an expert about Apple. I just happen to have usually read the actual news items that Asher exaggerates 100 fold in his campaign to prove that Apple is in league with the devil. I still think he's Steve Jobs illegitimate son who is out to take vengeance on the father who abandoned him. And if you bother reading those threads, you will see that I claim very little - usually just that the evidence doesn't support the conclusion.

And I am a philosophy expert. It's what I get paid to do. I've taught critical thinking many times. That's enough to know that oftentimes when one Apolytoner accuses another of committing a fallacy the latter has done no such thing. Case in point - when confronted with counterexamples people are always accusing others of attacking straw men when in fact it is their own poorly articulated position that invites the obvious counterexample.

Having said that, there is precious little real philosophy on Apolyton (which is good because it would probably bore people).

In this case people are simply wrong about what constitutes an ad hominem attack. If it were as broad as they think, many reasonable inferences would be cut out.

	15-05-2004 22:04									#167
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quote: Originally posted by MRT144 .... Ive seen you humiliated in debates with people as low Asher...

And Asher is the latest driveby shooting victim....

	17-05-2004 10:58									#168
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quote: Originally posted by Jaguar This thread reeks of "I just decided that I truly hate Bush and now feel like announcing it to the world, even though everyone else came to that conclusion years ago."

I came to that conclusion a few months ago, then I realized I also hate Kerry.

I'm voting for neither this election.

	17-05-2004 17:17									#169
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quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger It's slightly amusing that US conservatives view Ronald Reagan as the high point of US history in the last 100 years or so. Poor sods.

I've an extreme amount of respect for Harry Truman.

	17-05-2004 18:12									#170
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For nuking those nasty Japs, right??

	18-05-2004 02:29									#171
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quote: Originally posted by MrFun For nuking those nasty Japs, right??

Among other things, yes.

	18-05-2004 02:38									#172
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon I'll give you a clue. Saying "Bush is an idiot, therefore we shouldn't listen to him" is not committing any fallacy, since it's good practice not to listen to idiots. It certainly isn't committing an ad hominem fallacy. You guys need to read a logic book. This is almost as good as Skywalker's attempt at defining the fallacy of appeal to authority.

I was right, too. I pointed out that saying "an expert says it, thus it is true" is a fallacy, which it is.

Saying "an expert says it, therefore we ought to believe that it is true", is different. But that's not what you said originally.

	18-05-2004 02:39									#173
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quote: Originally posted by Verto Among other things, yes.

that's nice

	18-05-2004 02:40									#174
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quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger Aggie is correct, that was not an ad hominem. It's only one when you attack your opponents in a debate or discussion. Or rather, it is an ad hominem unquestionably.

And I guess this doesn't count as a debate or discussion?