13-05-2004 17:39									#91
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quote: and I'll now go back to posting on-topic, too.

Bah! On-Topic is for losers and +1ers .

	13-05-2004 17:40									#92
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ahh yes and the wage stagnation... great job making sure the rich got richer while everyone else's money was worth less.

	13-05-2004 17:43									#93
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Well, we had this debate a few years ago, but in my case that wasn't necessarily so, Sava. My family was flat-assed broke in 1980, very comfortable in 1989.

	13-05-2004 17:44									#94
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How the hell did we get from assinating people to Reagan?

	13-05-2004 17:45									#95
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quote: Originally posted by Sava ahh yes and the wage stagnation... great job making sure the rich got richer while everyone else's money was worth less.

No wonder why you're depressed.

You see a rainbow and complain it means the ground is wet, don't you?

	13-05-2004 17:56									#96
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quote: Originally posted by JohnT Well, we had this debate a few years ago, but in my case that wasn't necessarily so, Sava. My family was flat-assed broke in 1980, very comfortable in 1989.

Yes, and your single case is representative of ALL OF AMERICA!


I'm not even going to waste a rolleyes on that one.

Verto: Rainbow? The right is so stupid when it comes to Raygun... Those economic policies were crap. Yes there was job creation, but they were lesser paying jobs. Wages stagnated, and he helped increase taxes for the middle and working classes. Yes, he spent one year cutting taxes, and the rest of his presidency raising them to pay for his massive deficit spending. There's not one bit of information that leads the objective person to believe Reagan did anything good... but the right worships him like he's Jesus ****ing CHrist. Reaganphiles are a bunch of dopes. But hey, most of them like Bush too.

The problem is, it's impossible to have a reasonable debate about Reagan and his policies because all the morons are like, "OMG REGUN = GOOD OMG". And in absence of a reasonable debate, I feel it's my duty to call the morons, morons.

	13-05-2004 17:58									#97
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Most of the 20 million jobs created paid at least 10$ an hour.

	13-05-2004 18:01									#98
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quote: Originally posted by Sava Yes, and your single case is representative of ALL OF AMERICA! I'm not even going to waste a rolleyes on that one.

So says somebody notorious for seeing one "abuse" and indicting an entire swarth of people because of it. Or do you not remember whining about how you hate all "soccer moms" because a couple of them drove their SUV's too fast through your white-flight neighborhood.

	13-05-2004 18:04									#99
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quote: Yes, he spent one year cutting taxes, and the rest of his presidency raising them to pay for his massive deficit spending.

From http://www.presidentreagan.info/reagan_budgets.cfm

Take it for what it's worth:

On average, Congress spent 2.8% more than Reagan asked for, while the cumulative (yearly compounding rate) was a whopping 24.5% more. If the budget in 1989 had been 24.5% smaller (i.e., 280 billion dollars) there could have been a surplus of about 130 billion dollars instead of a deficit. This is equivalent to a constant compounding increase of 2.8% every year during the 8 budgets above and beyond the previous year's spending. If anyone still thinks that is not a significant amount, they should ask themselves whether a balanced budget in 1989 would have been significant.



Sources:
Budget Message of the President, FY's 81 to 89
Budget of the United States, FY 1993, Part 5, Table 1.3, page 5-18.
Proposed outlays for 1981 from 1981 FY 1982 Budget Revisions

	13-05-2004 18:04									#100
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John: You wear the Iron Lady well

	13-05-2004 18:10									#101
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quote: Originally posted by JohnT So says somebody notorious for seeing one "abuse" and indicting an entire swarth of people because of it. Or do you not remember whining about how you hate all "soccer moms" because a couple of them drove their SUV's too fast through your white-flight neighborhood.

you mean you take my savarants seriously? you need more help than I originally thought.

	13-05-2004 18:14									#102
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Now the big question is this:

Is your inability to take yourself seriously contributing to your self-esteem problems, or are your self-esteem problems denying you the ability to take yourself seriously?

Next, on Sally Jesse Raphael!

	13-05-2004 18:19									#103
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quote: Originally posted by JohnT Now the big question is this: Is your inability to take yourself seriously contributing to your self-esteem problems, or are your self-esteem problems denying you the ability to take yourself seriously? Next, on Sally Jesse Raphael!

Actually, I just enjoy making fun of people and watching their reactions to my rants. I'm sure that has something to do with my problems, but I'm no Sigmund Fraud.

	14-05-2004 02:52									#104
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui John: You wear the Iron Lady well

What's better than a picture of the Iron Lady? A picture of the Iron Lady with The Reagan

	14-05-2004 03:07									#105
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I get it now. I really should look to Reagan for inspiration. After all, if HE can become president, anyone can!

	14-05-2004 03:08									#106
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quote: What's better than a picture of the Iron Lady? A picture of the Iron Lady with The Reagan

BRILLIANT!

	14-05-2004 03:10									#107
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Can we impale Bush for stupidity? On a pointy stick? Please?

	14-05-2004 03:28									#108
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quote: Originally posted by Verto On average, Congress spent 2.8% more than Reagan asked for, while the cumulative (yearly compounding rate) was a whopping 24.5% more.

That's very bad math.

	14-05-2004 03:28									#109
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Voodoo math?

	14-05-2004 03:39									#110
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Verto got taken in by the compounding trick. IIRC it's from Sean Hannity's book.

Al Franken has a good laugh about that in his book Lies and the Stupid Conservatives Who Tell Them. That statistic is completely meaningless. I'll have to dig up my copy.

	14-05-2004 03:47									#111
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Yep. I looked and that's Hannity's stuff all right. That cumulative difference column is just horseshit. The average difference between Proposed and Actual spending during Reagan's term is only 2.8%. The cumulative difference column is completely meaningless.

Look in Franken's book pp. 96-101

You've been taken in by fuzzy math Verto.

	14-05-2004 03:48									#112
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As I said when I posted before, take it for what it's worth.

	14-05-2004 03:53									#113
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which is nothing verto, nothing

	14-05-2004 03:54									#114
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I assume you speak for The American People on that, as well?

	14-05-2004 03:57									#115
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Speaking of Al Franken, how's Air America? Still financially inept?

	14-05-2004 04:02									#116
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It's worth nothing and the figures aren't even right.

What happens is that Reagan proposes X amount of spending and Congress approves Y amount, then Z amount is actually spent (due to unforeseen costs and other economic factors). Neither Reagan nor Congress was responsible for the differences between their spending goals and Z.

But Hannity flat out lies. He compares Reagan's spending proposals with what was actually spent (figure Z) instead of with Congress' approved amount (Y).

That's lie number one. What he then does is multiply the percentage differences between each year (sometimes more was spent than Reagan approved, sometimes less) and comes up with 24.5% "cumulative difference". But the "cumulative difference" is a completely meaningless figure. It seems to suggest that Congress spent 25% more than Reagan proposed over the whole period. But they didn't. If you add up the percentage differences for each year the average percentage was only 2.68% greater than what Reagan proposed. In fact because that is figure Z it isn't even telling the truth about Congress. The average percentage increase of Congress' approvals (figure Y) was only 0.6 percent higher than Reagan's proposals.

Hannity conveniently omitted a column from the table he used so as to confuse the issue. The whole thing is 24 carat bullshit.

	14-05-2004 04:04									#117
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Don't even try to defend Hannity on this one. Either he's an ignoramus or a liar.

	14-05-2004 04:12									#118
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Can't he be both?

	14-05-2004 04:13									#119
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So are the people who used that graph.

	14-05-2004 04:15									#120
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quote: Originally posted by Verto Can't he be both?

He probably is. Don't be fooled by that bad math. I added all the figures myself and the total difference in spending over the whole period was 2.68 percent. The total percentage difference between Reagan's budget and Congress approval was only 0.6 percent. You can't blame Congress for massively overspending based on those figures.