14-05-2004 04:51									#121
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bravo Agathon...

I'm disappointed in you Verto. I guess you're in that other category wtihout smart people. WELCOME!

	14-05-2004 04:54									#122
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quote: Originally posted by Sava bravo Agathon... I'm disappointed in you Verto. I guess you're in that other category wtihout smart people. WELCOME!

I feel a whole new sense of camaderie with you, Sava.

	14-05-2004 04:55									#123
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w00t!

	14-05-2004 04:56									#124
	Tired of ads?

Now all you need is a decent avatar, and you can become a full-fledged member of my The Reagan CivGroup.

	14-05-2004 04:58									#125
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I know, I don't like my avatar... but I've hit a creative wall.

I'll come up with something soon. Maybe I'll put back my Timmy and Jimmy avatar!

	14-05-2004 04:59									#126
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Might I suggest an avatar-sized version of

	14-05-2004 05:00									#127
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I'd shoot myself in the testicles before I have anything reagan... well unless he's getting peed on or something.

	14-05-2004 05:07									#128
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You say that, but deep down you yearn for the Gipper.

	14-05-2004 05:56									#129
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Contradicting a point that Sean Hannity made by quoting Al Franken is akin to countering Sava by quoting Fez.

	14-05-2004 05:57									#130
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quote: Originally posted by JohnT Contradicting a point that Sean Hannity made by quoting Al Franken is akin to countering Sava by quoting Fez.

or JohnT... because he can't dispute facts and attacks the author.

	14-05-2004 05:59									#131
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What is worth countering in statements like this:

quote: Originally posted by Sava I'd shoot myself in the testicles before I have anything reagan... well unless he's getting peed on or something.

?

	14-05-2004 06:03									#132
	Put an end to popups!

Well the fact that Sava lacks testicles would be a good start .

	14-05-2004 06:15									#133
	Remove this text

I guess that means I can't get shot in them... YIPPY!

	14-05-2004 07:15									#134
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quote: Originally posted by JohnT Contradicting a point that Sean Hannity made by quoting Al Franken is akin to countering Sava by quoting Fez.

Franken just deals with it in his book - that's where I remembered reading about it. He's right too - that stuff is rubbish, you could see it for yourself if you bothered to look, or even think for a change. If you want to resort with ad hominem attacks, go read Ann Coulter - hers are better than yours.

Just because, as a matter of fact, all right wingers are ignorant liars is no reason to endorse faulty reasoning. Congress was not responsible for the deficit - Reagan was.

	14-05-2004 07:20									#135
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quote: BERKELEY - May 11 - Reporting from an ongoing survey of public knowledge and opinion, Berkeley based NGO Retro Poll released startling results suggesting that 39% of Americans favor impeachment of President Bush. The poll, taken between April 19 and May 5 asked whether people believe that misleading Congress and the Public on weapons of mass destruction to take the country to war is grounds to impeach the President (39% said yes, 40% said no). On whether the U.S. should have invaded Iraq the poll results are consistent with findings of Gallup and other major polls (48% said yes). Other surprising findings were that almost half of respondents (46%) favor an independent investigation of the U.S. role in the overthrow of Haiti's democratically elected president, Juan Bertrand Aristide, and 57% favor a national moratorium on the death penalty because of the procedural problems that have put many innocent people on death row (112 released so far). Four out of five Americans also repudiate the use of torture. As in earlier Retro Polls most support for the war in Iraq and the War on Terrorism was found among people who still think that Saddam Hussein worked with Al Qaeda (though no evidence has been published) and among the 32% of people who believe the War on Terrorism is preventing terrorism. However, 24% of Americans believe that the War on Terrorism is actually creating terrorists. In addition, 56 % of people who gave an opinion say the War on Terrorism is removing important democratic rights in the US and large percentages (50-80%) oppose various intrusive provisions of the USA PATRIOT Act. The poll reached 513 random Americans and has a "margin of error" of +/- 3.5% Full results are available at www.retropoll.org . http://www.commondreams.org/news2004/0511-08.htm

I saw this on the DemocraticUnderground today... take it for what it's worth (and with a grain of salt), those people say blackops and special forces killed Nick Berg to get support for the war.

But interesting nevertheless.

	14-05-2004 08:03									#136
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon Franken just deals with it in his book - that's where I remembered reading about it. He's right too - that stuff is rubbish, you could see it for yourself if you bothered to look, or even think for a change. If you want to resort with ad hominem attacks, go read Ann Coulter - hers are better than yours.

But why resort to a second-rate piker like Ann Coulter when the two best practitioners of ad hominems are right here in this thread, Agathon? Sava?

I was wondering when you two would discover each other. It's a love destined to last the ages.

	14-05-2004 08:07									#137
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Do you even know what an ad hominem is?

Pointing out facts, such as Bush's manifest ignorance, is not making an ad hominem argument.

	14-05-2004 08:09									#138
	Inflate your Upload Space

Yes, he very well knows what an ad hominem is, and he's right on the money about who employs them.

	14-05-2004 08:10									#139
	Increase the size of your Attachments

absolutely

	14-05-2004 08:13									#140
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon Do you even know what an ad hominem is?

quote: ... or even think for a change.

Yeah, I might have an idea what they are, Aggie.

	14-05-2004 08:26									#141
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Neither of you even know what an ad hominem fallacy is.

Priceless...

	14-05-2004 08:28									#142
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I'll give you a clue.

Saying "Bush is an idiot, therefore we shouldn't listen to him" is not committing any fallacy, since it's good practice not to listen to idiots. It certainly isn't committing an ad hominem fallacy. You guys need to read a logic book.

This is almost as good as Skywalker's attempt at defining the fallacy of appeal to authority.

	14-05-2004 18:06									#143
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Main Entry: 1ad ho·mi·nem
Pronunciation: (')ad-'hä-m&-"nem, -n&m
Function: adjective
Etymology: New Latin, literally, to the person
1 : appealing to feelings or prejudices rather than intellect
2 : marked by an attack on an opponent's character rather than by an answer to the contentions made


Priceless material.

	14-05-2004 20:17									#144
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Yes Verto... the dictionary usually is a good counter to Aggie's uninformed rants.

quote: those people say blackops and special forces killed Nick Berg to get support for the war.

	14-05-2004 20:20									#145
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I mourn for his students.

	14-05-2004 20:21									#146
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Agathon was referring to "ad hominens" with regards to argument fallacies... not the dictionary definition.

	14-05-2004 20:23									#147
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It's the same exact thing.

	14-05-2004 20:25									#148
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc It's the same exact thing.

almost

from http://www.nizkor.org/features/fall...ad-hominem.html

quote: Translated from Latin to English, "Ad Hominem" means "against the man" or "against the person." An Ad Hominem is a general category of fallacies in which a claim or argument is rejected on the basis of some irrelevant fact about the author of or the person presenting the claim or argument. Typically, this fallacy involves two steps. First, an attack against the character of person making the claim, her circumstances, or her actions is made (or the character, circumstances, or actions of the person reporting the claim). Second, this attack is taken to be evidence against the claim or argument the person in question is making (or presenting). This type of "argument" has the following form: Person A makes claim X. Person B makes an attack on person A. Therefore A's claim is false.

It's possible to insult someone while not commiting an ad hominem fallacy.

	14-05-2004 20:30									#149
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Let's look at your quote and apply it to Aggie's statement.

quote: First, an attack against the character of person making the claim

Bush is an idiot, ...

quote: Second, this attack is taken to be evidence against the claim or argument the person in question is making

... therefore we shouldn't listen to him

	14-05-2004 20:35									#150
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Is saying Bush is an idiot an irrelevant fact when discussing whether we should listen to him though?

Even if yes, there are more pertinent fallacies being commited.