14-05-2004 20:05									#181
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True, it may have been necessary, but moral? Naw, Lincoln was a good politician. He knew when to be amoral when it was for his (and the country's) best interest.

	14-05-2004 21:23									#182
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quote: Originally posted by monolith94 "If using the Constitution as toilet paper is the way to be "one of the greatest moral leaders in history," the competition must not be that fierce." In stark contrast to the present administration, right? Anyway, the slave states were already violating the fundamental principle on which the nation was founded - the equality of man. To say that they could use the constitution to support their unamerican practices is to say that they can have their cake and eat it, too.

Actually, in antebellum America, Americans could not agree on whether the Constitution was proslavery or if it was inherently anti-slavery. So it was not absolutely certain for Americans on where the Constitution stood on slavery before the Civil War -- they couldn't establish such a consensus.

	14-05-2004 21:25									#183
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon Of course mono is right. And heroification being a subjective thing? Don't be stupid. There are public criteria for heroism, it's not just a preference like one's favourite flavour of icecream. One can like a person without believing them to be a hero.

Heroification is subjective -- for the Nazis during World War II, Adolf Hitler was their hero. Was Hitler a hero in the eyes of United States and its allies? I don't think so.

	14-05-2004 21:26									#184
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc I'm not the one stupid enough to nominate Lincoiln as "one of the greatest moral leaders in history," Aggie is. Furthermore, I'm not talking about that states that rose up in rebellion. I'm talking about his abuse of power in the Union states. Ex parte Merryman being an example of the least of them.

But one can admit to abuses of executive powers without villifying Lincoln.

	14-05-2004 21:28									#185
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quote: I'm not the one stupid enough to nominate Lincoiln as "one of the greatest moral leaders in history," Aggie is. Furthermore, I'm not talking about that states that rose up in rebellion. I'm talking about his abuse of power in the Union states. Ex parte Merryman being an example of the least of them.

It's easy to play Monday Morning Quarterback when it's about 140 years after the fact, eh?

	14-05-2004 21:43									#186
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Hell, they were doing it mere years after Lincoln and even DURING Lincoln. When do you think Ex Parte Merryman was?

	15-05-2004 00:51									#187
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"Actually, in antebellum America, Americans could not agree on whether the Constitution was proslavery or if it was inherently anti-slavery. So it was not absolutely certain for Americans on where the Constitution stood on slavery before the Civil War -- they couldn't establish such a consensus."

You don't think that the antebellum South might have been slightly biased towards an interpretation which favored a pro-slavery constitution???

	15-05-2004 00:57									#188
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I was not saying that there was no bias -- abolitionists were divided into reading the Constitution as either pro-slavery or anti-slavery and most white Southerners certainly wanted to claim that the Constitution supported slavery.

What I WAS saying is that you cannot ignore the fact that many antebellum Americans were talking about white people when talking about equality -- even if some of the original founding fathers might have thought they were providing a way for equality to eventually include everyone.

	15-05-2004 01:25									#189
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Dude, the original Constitution had slaves count as 3/5ths of a person for representation. It was a pro-slavery document.

	15-05-2004 02:30									#190
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Imran -- and I have read books by historians where even in antebellum years, Americans debated whether or not the Constitution was inherently pro-slavery or anti-slavery.

	15-05-2004 03:12									#191
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Yes, I realize that. But I'm telling you, that I think it was a pro-slavery document, and had to have been in order to get the South to sign on.

	15-05-2004 03:23									#192
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui Yes, I realize that. But I'm telling you, that I think it was a pro-slavery document, and had to have been in order to get the South to sign on.

Ok -- I see your point.

	15-05-2004 03:34									#193
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Man, this has probably been one of the most threadjacked threads in history .

	15-05-2004 04:06									#194
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui Yes, I realize that. But I'm telling you, that I think it was a pro-slavery document, and had to have been in order to get the South to sign on.

Anything pro-slavery is immoral, since slavery is immoral. Ergo Lincoln's dalliances with some unconstitutional acts in defiance of a huge immorality were, indeed, moral acts.

	15-05-2004 04:18									#195
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hmmm . . . . .


good statement, Boris

	15-05-2004 04:34									#196
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JohnT - don't change your avatar. I just changed mine to join your league.

I don't want to join the Reagan camp.

	15-05-2004 05:13									#197
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quote: Anything pro-slavery is immoral, since slavery is immoral. Ergo Lincoln's dalliances with some unconstitutional acts in defiance of a huge immorality were, indeed, moral acts.

Huge immorality being the severing of the union?

Or the Constitution itself being the huge immorality, and in that respect I hope you are as understanding when Ashcroft takes away your free speech .

	15-05-2004 05:15									#198
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov Anything pro-slavery is immoral, since slavery is immoral. Ergo Lincoln's dalliances with some unconstitutional acts in defiance of a huge immorality were, indeed, moral acts.

So anything needed to correct immorality is moral?

	15-05-2004 05:17									#199
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I'm sure he hasn't thought it through that far .

	15-05-2004 05:48									#200
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui Or the Constitution itself being the huge immorality, and in that respect I hope you are as understanding when Ashcroft takes away your free speech .

I'm pretty certain he was referring to parts of the Constitution only.

	15-05-2004 06:14									#201
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Well in that sense, my first statement applies: High Immorality being severing of the union?

	15-05-2004 06:24									#202
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Hey where do I fit?

Surely Coulter counts as well.

	15-05-2004 06:32									#203
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Why would the severing of the Union be moral or immoral?

	15-05-2004 06:33									#204
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Coulter counts as extremely immoral. Go repent to your God.

	15-05-2004 06:33									#205
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Yeah, but Coulter (especially that picture) is just so damned ugly. Form your own group.

	15-05-2004 06:34									#206
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi Hey where do I fit? Surely Coulter counts as well.

Ann Coulter cannot join my The Reagan club.

	15-05-2004 06:35									#207
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She's wayy more successful at pissing off liberals.

	15-05-2004 06:37									#208
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi She's wayy more successful at pissing off liberals.

Not really. She's just a blowhorn, whereas Raygun actually performed destructive acts.

	15-05-2004 06:39									#209
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Yes, the Wall fell rather loudly, didn't it. Almost as hard as the Soviet Union itself.

	15-05-2004 06:41									#210
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Quickpoll:
Who here believes Reagan is one of the main reason, if not THE main reason, why the wall fell?