15-05-2004 06:42									#211
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Everyone should at least admit he was a driving force behind it all, even if their liberal allegiance prevents them from admitting anything more.

	15-05-2004 06:42									#212
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The internal contradictions inherent in the Communist system was the reason it fell. Didn't they teach you kids anything in France?

	15-05-2004 06:45									#213
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If I understand, this means:
Verto: Yes
JohnT: No

	15-05-2004 06:46									#214
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Eh, he had something to do with it. To what extent is debatable, but to say that he had nothing to do with it is as fallacious as saying he had everything to do with it.

But, still, given the wording of your question, keep me at "no".

	15-05-2004 06:47									#215
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor JohnT: No

So they didn't teach you anything in France. Explains a lot.

	15-05-2004 06:47									#216
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Traitor.

	15-05-2004 06:51									#217
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quote: The internal contradictions inherent in the Communist system was the reason it fell

So I guess that's why I don't have Reagan on my avatar.

	15-05-2004 06:54									#218
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quote: Originally posted by JohnT So they didn't teach you anything in France. Explains a lot.

What? I just guessed your vote

	15-05-2004 06:58									#219
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quote: Why would the severing of the Union be moral or immoral?

Well that's the point. The reason Lincoln did all those 'immoral' things was to save the union, NOT to end slavery (which is the 'immoral parts' as you were saying).

quote: Who here believes Reagan is one of the main reason, if not THE main reason, why the wall fell?

One of the main reasons? Put me down as a Yes. Communism is inherantly flawed, but as we see in North Korea, an inherantly flawed state can survive destitute for a long while.

	15-05-2004 07:08									#220
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quote: Originally posted by Theben I'm pretty certain he was referring to parts of the Constitution only.

It was an unqualified statement. I think he stated what he meant well enough without you trying to change what he said.

	15-05-2004 07:13									#221
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: Why would the severing of the Union be moral or immoral? Well that's the point. The reason Lincoln did all those 'immoral' things was to save the union, NOT to end slavery (which is the 'immoral parts' as you were saying).

Is it possible for a person to commit a moral act, even if their intentions are amoral?

quote: quote: Who here believes Reagan is one of the main reason, if not THE main reason, why the wall fell? One of the main reasons? Put me down as a Yes. Communism is inherantly flawed, but as we see in North Korea, an inherantly flawed state can survive destitute for a long while.

No. I agree with JohnT, in that as leader of the most powerful nation at the time the wall fell, he had to have had something to do with it. But No more so than any other president in the 40 years before him.
I'd give more credit to Gorbachev than Reagan for the fall.

DD, then we should both wait for him to clarify, eh?

	15-05-2004 07:31									#222
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quote: Is it possible for a person to commit a moral act, even if their intentions are amoral?

No. IMO, to do a 'moral' act, your intentions must be to do so. Stumbling into something that people think is good doesn't work for me.

quote: No. I agree with JohnT, in that as leader of the most powerful nation at the time the wall fell, he had to have had something to do with it. But No more so than any other president in the 40 years before him. I'd give more credit to Gorbachev than Reagan for the fall.

Well I disagree with you . I think he had more of an effect, for after years of detente, pushing a brinksmanship policy once again, realizing the best position to negotiate from is one of strength.

I do consider it funny to hear people giving Gorby CREDIT! In order to credit someone with something, they should have intended to do it . You can blame him if you want .

	15-05-2004 07:51									#223
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I don't think my location needs any change to still fit, does it?

	15-05-2004 08:02									#224
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui No. IMO, to do a 'moral' act, your intentions must be to do so. Stumbling into something that people think is good doesn't work for me.

Ah, so it is therefore impossible to commit an immoral act if you didn't intend to. Morality being in the eye of the beholder, of course. I'll keep that in mind.

quote: Well I disagree with you .

I'm shocked... SHOCKED I tells ya!

quote: I think he had more of an effect, for after years of detente, pushing a brinksmanship policy once again, realizing the best position to negotiate from is one of strength. I do consider it funny to hear people giving Gorby CREDIT! In order to credit someone with something, they should have intended to do it . You can blame him if you want .

Credit or blame, however you want to say it. I realize that Gorby was trying to save the Soviet Union, but he apparently didn't realize how corrupt and intransigent the party had become.

	15-05-2004 09:26									#225
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Joining in the fun

	15-05-2004 09:35									#226
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they're spreading... this is worse than that pink epidemic we had at counterglow...

	15-05-2004 10:00									#227
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I think the Reagan shoe-shine boys could use a little therapy.

	15-05-2004 10:09									#228
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...says the man with the raccoon fetish.

	15-05-2004 10:15									#229
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It's not a fetish . . . . it's a new religion.


Behold the presence of the great raccoon spirit and bow down and pray.

	15-05-2004 10:43									#231
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Reagan had as much to do with the fall of the Berlin wall as a butterfly in the Yucatan.

	15-05-2004 10:46									#232
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It's really sad that you hate the man so much, you want to rob him of legitimate accomplishments.

	15-05-2004 11:33									#233
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Hmm. Pretty much the only laudable thing he's accomplished was his laying of a wreath at the Bitburg military cemetery in honour of the German soldiers who died in the two World Wars. IMHO, that's actually pretty gutsy and cool for a US politician.

	15-05-2004 11:35									#234
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quote: Originally posted by The Mad Monk It's really sad that you hate the man so much, you want to rob him of legitimate accomplishments.

You're right -- it's absolutely true that he saved the entire world from communism using just one of his smallest fingers!

	15-05-2004 13:15									#235
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quote: Originally posted by St Leo Hmm. Pretty much the only laudable thing he's accomplished was his laying of a wreath at the Bitburg military cemetery in honour of the German soldiers who died in the two World Wars. IMHO, that's actually pretty gutsy and cool for a US politician.

He understood that good people die on both sides of any conflict -- that's why he strove so hard to bring an end to the cold war.