14-05-2004 14:31									#1
	Where to build our 3rd City? Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

Where to build our 3rd City?

Please see this thread for a discussion on the subject.

Maps copied from that thread:

Togas' Map:


Donegeal's Map:

	14-05-2004 17:03									#2
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Obviously I voted for Donegeal's Blue.

My City plan maximizes tile usage up to size 6 cities. It gives us the best core with the least amount of work to get to it and the ability to pump out units faster than any other plan. Deviation from this plan even the one tile to Togas' Blue would put the entire plan out of order and it (my plan) would then be invalid.

	14-05-2004 17:41									#3
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Donegeal's Blue, but it was a close call.
But it will make an excelent place to open the
Apolyton Boat-Yard.

	14-05-2004 17:47									#4
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Togas Blue!

	14-05-2004 19:30									#5
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Togas Blue!

	14-05-2004 20:55									#6
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The only reason to vote for Donegeal blue is if you are Donegeal or if you like his overall plan.

There really isn't any other reason. The two city sites, when compared against each other, do not compare. Dongeal Blue is a sub-standard city with only 1 bonus tile in its radius (because the cows and other bonus shield belong to Apolyton and Hypnos). Togas Blue has more bonus tiles, the same number of forests, and more grassland in its radius. It will start stronger, grow faster, produce more shields, and has access to cows if for some odd reason we decide not to give them to Hypnos or Apolyton.

Study the two sites. Consider the current WF demands of Apolyton and Hypnos. Then make the obvious choice.

--Togas

	14-05-2004 21:07									#7
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I see your argument exceedingly short sighted Togas (and a bit of a personal attack).

I have already admitted to you and all of Apolyton that building at your site would make for a better city, but it would to adversely affect the other cities around it.

If you (Apolyton, not just Togas) reread my original post about my plan, I have done considerable amounst of work on. Determining excetly where to place each city to get the absoulte most out of our land. My blue site is just a single puzzle piece to this plan. Move or alter just one piece and the puzzle cannot be completed.

	14-05-2004 21:28									#8
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Donegeal Blue

Because his plan overall gets us the most production the earliest.

Togas's plan in the other thread with a new palace core is good, but IMHO is the way we should do things in a normal game. This isn't normal. The name of the game is produce sheilds, quickly eliminate CDG and then stay abreast of PAL.

Take note of the last sentence:

Stay abreast of PAL

Now Arnelos as our resident I hate PAL and I know they are gonna backstab us and I wish we would have never allied with them guy., I would think you most of all would appreciate that.

With that being said, I dont think we should just continue polling every city we put up.

We need to poll PLANS.

Donegeal vs Togas vs GK vs Krill, etc etc...

Right now Donegeal has the most comprehensive plan that will get us sheilds the quickest. OVERALL IN THIS CORE.

If someone wants to come up with a plan that will do just as well, just as quickly, Im all for hearing about it.

But please this is a different kind of game. We should not be stuck in "Doing it the way we have always done it".

	14-05-2004 21:48									#9
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Togas Blue

Aidun

	15-05-2004 01:59									#10
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Actually, Donegeal's plan DOESN'T get us sheilds any faster, nor does it present better cities or somehow represent an ideal city placement. It only arbitrarily sets out a group of cities and then color-codes what tiles he would like each to work.

It isn't a better long range plan, nor even a better short range plan. Sure, the picture may look nice but you need to dig into it a bit and actually study it...

First of all, he assigns "blue city" to NO BONUS TILES WHATSOEVER. Donegeal Blue City, upon being built, would work the river forrest, would grow in TWENTY TURNS and would amass a whopping 3spt during that period of time. Then after growth it gets a grassland tile that (after being mined) will add another 1spt and the place will continue to grow at 20 turns.

The next city is a pink site with NO BONUS TILES EITHER. It isn't on a river, on a hill, nor does it have floodplains in it's radius. It's just there because it's a "piece of the puzzle", sort of like his blue city, but what sort of puzzle are we really building here?

After that, it's another 3 bad cities, take your pick on the order, but I am absolutely dumbfounded how certain people (*cough* Con *cough*) can say that this plan gets us "the most production the earliest" and say it with a straight face???!

If we arbitrarily and randomly picked a tile and plopped down a settler we'd probably get more production and growth out of that haphazard city than that tobacco city site.

If the highest priority is getting a series of cities that maximises production in our core, I've already given you a better plan, and one that's more forward thinking -- one that also gives us a future palace jump location and puts to use ALL of the tiles around Apolyton after it fails to exist.

Donegeal's plan would leave 2 of the former Apolyton tiles unused and vacant. One of those tiles is a river-forest the other the former site of Apolyton. Both tiles are not ones we should squander.

--Togas

	15-05-2004 02:48									#11
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quote: Originally posted by Togas It isn't a better long range plan, nor even a better short range plan. Sure, the picture may look nice but you need to dig into it a bit and actually study it...

I made this plan LONG ago and put my reasons for each city and asked for anyone to comment on it. I did dig into my plan. It was designed to get the most production from size 6 cities with no wasted food. Try digging a little further.

quote: Originally posted by Togas First of all, he assigns "blue city" to NO BONUS TILES WHATSOEVER. Donegeal Blue City, upon being built, would work the river forrest, would grow in TWENTY TURNS and would amass a whopping 3spt during that period of time. Then after growth it gets a grassland tile that (after being mined) will add another 1spt and the place will continue to grow at 20 turns.

The tiles that are 'assigned' are only assigned as such when each city is at size 6. To think that those are to only tiles they can work is crazy.

quote: Originally posted by Togas The next city is a pink site with NO BONUS TILES EITHER. It isn't on a river, on a hill, nor does it have floodplains in it's radius. It's just there because it's a "piece of the puzzle", sort of like his blue city, but what sort of puzzle are we really building here?

The pink city was placed where it was so that it could encompase the ivory so the players who were screaming to grab the Ivory ASAP would be satisified. As Ivory no longer is as needed as before, the city could wait on the settlement plan. The yellow city would be the next best.

quote: Originally posted by Togas After that, it's another 3 bad cities, take your pick on the order, but I am absolutely dumbfounded how certain people (*cough* Con *cough*) can say that this plan gets us "the most production the earliest" and say it with a straight face???!

This is because you are not seeing the main purpose of this plan. It was made with only the goal of size 6 cities. How many times do I have to say that before you listen?

quote: Originally posted by Togas If we arbitrarily and randomly picked a tile and plopped down a settler we'd probably get more production and growth out of that haphazard city than that tobacco city site.

Once again, if you had actually read my post, you would see that the blue city was actually just a filler (as the other good tiles were being used by the red and yellow cities). It got bumped up on the priority list because it would need both a barracks and a grainery (and they take time to build).

quote: Originally posted by Togas If the highest priority is getting a series of cities that maximises production in our core, I've already given you a better plan, and one that's more forward thinking -- one that also gives us a future palace jump location and puts to use ALL of the tiles around Apolyton after it fails to exist. Donegeal's plan would leave 2 of the former Apolyton tiles unused and vacant. One of those tiles is a river-forest the other the former site of Apolyton. Both tiles are not ones we should squander.

As I said, this plan was for size 6 cites and for the destruction of CDG. I have never claimed that it was best for a future core or that it even claimed to plan for one. These are points that I have grasiously gave you without argument. Why bring them up with such harsh tones?

PS- I am idling in chat if you would like to disscuss these matters.

	15-05-2004 03:40									#12
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I'll be brief:

I did dig into it. I've read the plan several times. I've expressed my objections to it in this thread and in others.

I do not agree that a plan that "gets the most production from size 6 cities with no wasted food" is our best possible plan, not do I believe that this plan IS the plan that would acheive that objective.

I believe that we should adopt a plan that is tight, gives us high production and growth, and also has taken into account our future growth and necessary palace move after CDG is eliminated.

I regret that I have been so vocal about my objections to this plan. I have offended Donegeal and I'm sorry for that. My strong negative reaction has been to those who have given very poor rationalizations for supporting it.

--Togas

	15-05-2004 20:21									#13
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Voting the Hill tile E of the Ivory.

Any other site and we risk our neighbors building a city there instead.

My second choice would be Togas Blue. The capital has a natural aquaduct and more over, we are Greece and have +2 commerce for size 7+ cities.

	16-05-2004 01:15									#14
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quote: Originally posted by Togas I'll be brief: My strong negative reaction has been to those who have given very poor rationalizations for supporting it. --Togas

Togas

Obviously our goals are different, that doesn't mean you have to get snooty about

I am of a firm opinion that we need sheild production now.

Obviously you disagree. Thats fine.

But just keep in mind PAL is already TWICE our size.

Im personally not comfortable optimizing the plan with a new palace core, this is a great plan for the long term, no question. But Im not convinced that is what we should be doing FOR THIS GAME.

But lets just agree to disagree.

No need to get snooty about it.

I start dreaming up excuses for PAL when we aren't ready militarily.

	16-05-2004 01:53									#15
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Basically, if we build the Statue of Zeus, we would be shoo ins to advance to the next round between the Advanced Calvary produced every 5 turns and the Hoplite UU even if we never actually attack anyone with them.

If either of the other players on our landmass builds the Statue of Zeus, it could be a major challenge if those two civs on the land mass gain up against us.

	16-05-2004 02:15									#16
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quote: Originally posted by conmcb25 Togas Obviously our goals are different, that doesn't mean you have to get snooty about I am of a firm opinion that we need sheild production now. Obviously you disagree. Thats fine.

* Arnelos looks at the location of the Donegeal blue city and sees a distinct disadvantage in building a high-shield producing city in short order... Arnelos has to wonder what on earth con is talking about

	16-05-2004 02:17									#17
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quote: Originally posted by Arnelos * Arnelos looks at the location of the Donegeal blue city and sees a distinct disadvantage in building a high-shield producing city in short order... Arnelos has to wonder what on earth con is talking about

Quite literally, the difference between black and white or more precisely, that gray area in the middle.

I want to see the plan using Togas blue that maximizes early production.

	16-05-2004 02:32									#18
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quote: Originally posted by conmcb25 Quite literally, the difference between black and white or more precisely, that gray area in the middle. I want to see the plan using Togas blue that maximizes early production.

Then why are you supporting the OTHER plan???

I'm not getting snooty, I'm just confused and frustrated, because I think the other plan is clearly not in our long-term or short-term interests, yet people continue to vote for it.

--Togas

	16-05-2004 03:00									#19
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Togas blue. Moving from 2 distance to 3 distance doesn't have much effect, and we nab the bonus grass. We can worry about size 7+ later if we get to that point.

	16-05-2004 03:06									#20
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I voted for Toga's blue

	16-05-2004 03:19									#21
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Here's my problem con:

Looking at the donegeal blue site, I see a city site that is going to blow goats for early production. At pop 1, it's going to either work the forest or its going to work a non-shielded grassland... yuck. In one case you have 3 spt (or 2 spt if there's 1 waste) and only 1 fpt... that's not a terribly high-production city and not one likely to lead to high production anytime soon with the lousy tiles within reach.

In fact, the donegeal blue city can't reach the critical 5 spt value (after likely waste is taken out) until it probably reaches Pop FOUR! and even that assumes that at least one grassland tile is mined between now and then... and the problem there is going to be getting the city up to that population on such lousy terrain. In other words, donegeal blue would make a lousy military camp until a good bit later.

By contrast, the Togas blue site has far better early growth and production potential. It can work the shileded grassland the moment its founded for 2 fpt and 2 spt at pop 1. When it reaches pop 2, it can use either an irrigated plains (2 fpt, 1 spt) or it can use the forest (1 fpt, 2 spt). Depending on waste amounts and whether the shielded grassland is mined by then, it could even reach 5 spt (probably not... there's bound to be at least 1 waste). By pop 3, the city can quite certainly make 5 spt.... and getting to pop 3 will be easier from that site as well as (because of the shielded grassland) provide us with more units or a barracks earlier while doing so.

In short, if you're looking to do EARLY production, building a city next to a PRODUCTION BONUS TILE is a good idea.

If you build donegeal blue, it can't match Togas blue's growth and production potential until its tiles are improved by workers and its borders expanded to the east, presumably by another city further in that direction... which of course raises the obvious question... if donegeal blue only becomes as valuable as Togas blue after we have ANOTHER city further to its east, why not just build donegeal blue 1 tile to the east and have the early potential of Togas blue earlier?

Now, I realize there are some potential drawbacks to such a plan once we get to the point that all of these cities may be up to about 6 pop and it's nice to look ahead on some of that... However, what I'm hearing from the proponents of donegeal blue is that they believe it be better for early production... which is absolutely the opposite of the truth. donegeal blue will atually take longer to develop into an effective camp, if that's the use you intend it for.

That said, it may indeed by that donegeal's OVERALL plan is more sound if we're aiming for optimal conditions in about 30-40 turns. If that is the case, then we should perhaps look at how much we lose by founding cities further away from bonus tiles (as is the case for MOST of donegeal's cities...) and having them only be reasonably productive once they are ALL built together (most of them suck until the other ones are built, expanding their borders to cover the critical bonus tiles). Sure, donegeal's plan may look sweet 30-40 turns from now, but I suspect it's going to be absolutely lousy between now and then.

	16-05-2004 03:33									#22
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Looking at donegeal's plan, some of his cities will reach 9 spt if fully improved... of course, some plains can be mined rather than irrigated, but still this is going to be an issue... and there's the problem of waste, of course.

If there's a way to better plan out the city plan while KNOWING what the waste amounts will be (I can do this, but it would take a lot of time), that would help.

	16-05-2004 20:13									#23
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OK my concerns have been adresses mainly in the city planning thread.

Nice analysis Togas.

And since Im usually the first one around here to admit I made a mistake, Ill go ahead and say it. I made a mistake.

But what that mistake did do was get us analyzing the plans vice the Togas Blue vs Donegeal Blue city debate which was my goal all along.

Now with that be said, I hope we are going to found the three cities first that can get us 5 spt with pop 2.

My primary concern is staying abreast of PAL. F-P is no dummy by far as Im REALLY beginning to find find out. His team mates are no slackers either.

And dealing with them diplomatically is going to be a he11 of a lot easier if we are more or less equal, which will be no small task since they are so far ahead of us right now.

Especially after CDG is gone.

Lets flush out this "Togas Plan" and make sure it "rocks".

Krill and GK and whomever else helps the MOI, you have your work cut out for you

	16-05-2004 20:15									#24
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Any spelling mistakes?

	17-05-2004 00:39									#25
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Well, since you asked...

quote: Originally posted by conmcb25 OK my concerns have been adresses addressed mainly in the city planning thread. Nice analysis Togas. And since Im I'm usually the first one around here to admit I made a mistake, Ill I'll go ahead and say it. I made a mistake. But what that mistake did do was get us analyzing the plans vice the Togas Blue vs Donegeal Blue city debate which was my goal all along. Now with that be said, work on your grammar con I hope we are going to found the three cities first that can get us 5 spt with pop 2. My primary concern is staying abreast of PAL. F-P is no dummy by far as Im I'm REALLY beginning to find find out. His team mates are no slackers either. And dealing with them diplomatically is going to be a he11 of a lot easier if we are more or less equal, which will be no small task since they are so far ahead of us right now. Especially after CDG is gone. Lets flush out this "Togas Plan" and make sure it "rocks". Krill and GK and whomever else helps the MOI, you have your work cut out for you

And more seriously...

quote: Originally posted by conmcb25 And dealing with them diplomatically is going to be a he11 of a lot easier if we are more or less equal, which will be no small task since they are so far ahead of us right now. Especially after CDG is gone.

Glad to hear you saying this. This is what I and others have been trying to put down as a major concern for a while.

	17-05-2004 00:42									#26
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

@ KLO

And I agree with your last statement.

I believe we can trust them BUT I dont want to get complacent.

And the way to keep abreast of PAL is to to get a well planned REX executed. So if I seem unpatient about the planning for it, thats why

	17-05-2004 02:49									#27
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I have not been around for a bit, so would anyone mind telling me what our diplomacy is like with PAL?

	17-05-2004 03:30									#28
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quote: Originally posted by Nuclear Master I have not been around for a bit, so would anyone mind telling me what our diplomacy is like with PAL?

A "bit"? It seems like you were MIA for months...

	17-05-2004 03:35									#29
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I voted for Togas Green as that was my original idea for the 3rd city site, however, it is a food powerhouse and not a production power house until there is a chance of getting the tiles improved, and the barbs will prevent us from moving there easily. As the people have voiced their opinion in favor of Togas Blue, I will place that into the orders.

	17-05-2004 05:41									#30
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quote: Originally posted by conmcb25 And dealing with them diplomatically is going to be a he11 of a lot easier if we are more or less equal, which will be no small task since they are so far ahead of us right now. Especially after CDG is gone.

This here is the single best reason to build the Statue of Zeus.