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alexman
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Hunt Valley, MD
Jan 1970
time: 00:36
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quote:
Pillage the village, trash the scene
But better not take it out on me
'Cause a ghost town is found
Where your city used to be
Pantera
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This is a sneak preview for the third Apolyton University class for C3C. In AU 503 we will learn how to bring the AI to its knees using hit-and run tactics. Pillaging and worker stealing will allow you to destroy the economy of your neighbors while yours prospers.
A textbook example of this strategy can be found in Aeson’s game in Testing the Jaguar Warrior. You are strongly encouraged to read that thread before attempting AU 503.
Another element of the game we shall be investigating in AU 503 will be a start without immediate access to fresh water with an agricultural Civilization. The Agricultural trait is hailed as the best trait in Civ3, but is it still useful even when you don’t start next to a river?
Game parameters:
Pachacuti of the Incas (Chasqui Scout)
Standard size
Continents, 70% water.
Arid, Warm, 3 billion year old World.
Roaming barbarians.
The game will begin when the poll shows that at least 20 people have signed up for the course. In the meantime, please share your strategy insight on how to approach this course! 
 Attachment: au503 start.jpg
This has been downloaded 141 time(s).
Last edited by alexman on 14-05-2004 at 21:38
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nbarclay
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Huntsville, Alabama
Dec 1999
time: 23:36
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One thing's for sure: without fresh water, the starting location is a truly lousy place for a capital. The plains can't be irrigated, so the only tile with both two food and production capacity is the hill (thanks to its sugar). That makes trying to find a better place for the capital rather than settling in the starting location very attractive.
One option would be to send the scout 9-8 (since the starting scout isn't a Chasqui with faster hill movement) and then, at least if that doesn't reveal something interesting, to move the worker onto the hill and see whether that might reveal something more interesting. For that matter, even if the scout does find something interesting, it might still be worth seeing what's on the other side of the hill too before deciding which direction the settler should move.
Those are just my initial thoughts, and I might come up with other ideas later. But this is definitely not a game where the first twenty or thirty turns can be planned, even tentatively, just from seeing the starting position without accepting a capital with extremely limited potential.
Nathan
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Risa
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Isn't there an oasis?
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ducki
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I'm not so sure, Nathan. I've been playing out sub-optimal starts a lot lately, restarting anything that I would normally drool over and most things that I would say "yay!" about.
That said, this looks like a not-so-bad start. Sure, the temporary lack of water is a bit of a hindrance, but I'll wing it for a bit.
We can grow to size 5, I think, just from the squares visible, and have 9spt, I think. Correct me if wrong.
The Ivory will allow us to ignore military police for a while, concentrating on scouting and a first settler - maybe a granary to mitigate the low food in the short term.
Also, since we start with Pottery, instead of research it on high, a Mathematics beeline might be in order to get an early SoZ up.
Looking West, there's desert and what looks like either Grassland or hills. A likely source of water that direction, definitely a future Palace relo possibility.
Looking South, I initially thought there was Tundra under the fog, but the minimap makes that seem very unlikely due to the geographical location as well as the plains and desert band already visible(thanks Aeson!), so given we're Agricultural and there's corresponding desert across the lake/bay, I'll bet that's desert. Maybe a water source for the second ring further south?
Also under the fog looks like 1 tile of grassland once the culture expansion happens. Same to the North, but possibly not. Still, I'll bet on there being just enough food to hit size 6 for the capitol. Just. If either the north-west or south-east under-fog square turns out to be 2-food, I'm settling right there.
As for initial builds, at least 1 scouting unit, maybe two, likely a curragh(correct me if wrong, but Ag/Exp starts with Pottery and Alphabet, right?), a worker, and at size 4.5, a settler without escort(btw, the AI does this a LOT. try watching a debug game and you'll be amazed the amount of time the AI wastes with naked settlers).
At any rate, I do hope some of us move the settler in search of food. I won't, but that sort of early decision could show large differences in the later game. I'd love to find out.
Thanks alexman, I'm chomping at the bit!
Edit: Additionally, adhering to the theme of early pillaging and worker stealing, I hope to have a large enough horde of slaves to make long-distance irrigation not so painful as it usually is. Alternately, a Math beeline early to utilize the Ivory for an SoZ would put you on the Construction path of the tree, bringing aqueducts much earlier than normal. Just a thought.
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nbarclay
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Huntsville, Alabama
Dec 1999
time: 23:36
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Ducki, where are you getting size 5? My read is that the only 2-food tiles currently clearly visible are the sugar hill and the fish, and both of those provide only 2 food under Despotism in the absence of a harbor for the fish. Without fresh water to give the capital's city square a food bonus, that would yield a maximum size of four, and the rate of growth would be cut in half growing from three to four. Without an additional 2-food tile, the only way the city could avoid cutting into its growth when it builds a settler would be to finish the settler exactly the same turn the city grows to size 3. And two turns of half-speed growth would cost as much food as delaying a turn building the capital.
Of course if one of the tiles the capital would have access to after it expands also generates two food, that would change the situation dramatically. There would be extra production potential at size 2, and the problem of having to produce a settler or worker the instant the capital hits size 3 or lose growth potential would not exist. Under those conditions, building the capital in the starting location would likely make sense. (And in that case, my proposed moves of scout and worker would confirm the situation before the settler decides whether to build in the starting location or to move.)
Nathan
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nbarclay
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Huntsville, Alabama
Dec 1999
time: 23:36
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quote:
Originally posted by ducki
Edit: Additionally, adhering to the theme of early pillaging and worker stealing, I hope to have a large enough horde of slaves to make long-distance irrigation not so painful as it usually is. Alternately, a Math beeline early to utilize the Ivory for an SoZ would put you on the Construction path of the tree, bringing aqueducts much earlier than normal. Just a thought. |
Cities on unirrigable plains need harbors before they can grow big enough for aqueducts to be relevant. So I don't see heading for Construction early as a huge advantage unless we have a fair amount of better terrain available. And even then, a lot depends on when it makes sense to let cities grow past size 6 instead of building settlers for REXing.
I don't see how an objective of early pillaging would lead to huge numbers of workers, unless you're confusing pillaging with razing. Once AIs are at war, they generally seem pretty good at keeping their workers out of the line of fire, so while a pillaging raid might snatch a few workers (either directly or from captured settlers) near its beginning, I have a harder time envisioning its leading to a massive hoarde of captured workers.
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ducki
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quote:
where are you getting size 5? |
Like I said, "correct me..."
I did the math on my fingers quickly, but it looks like you are right, topping out at 4 on visible tiles.
quote:
if one of the tiles the capital would have access to after it expands also generates two food... proposed moves of scout and worker would confirm the situation |
I'll bet my game on that one. I will commit to settling before scouting. I'm "positive" one of those two squares, maybe both, are grass. Going out on a limb, but if I'm wrong it'll be a fun challenge. 
quote:
an objective of early pillaging |
I was going strictly on the stated objective of "Pillaging and worker stealing" from both alexman and myself. Yes, the AI does a good job hiding them, but with 2 moves, I'll have a better shot at nabbing more of them. I'll not be warring conventionally. Guerilla tactics and set-up will be important here, particularly for successful worker-napping.
A massive horde of workers is relative. The earlier I start workernapping, the fewer it takes to be considered a sizeable number.
The Construction/Aqueduct thing was just a thought. A passing fancy, in a way. If one goes for Math super early, then even if you don't value Aqueducts, why give up that branch lead to follow the AIs elsewhere? Construction and Currency are both quite valuable in trade. Again, that assumes that I opt to shoot for the SoZ as early as I can. I dislike branch-hopping, personally, and this was a way to see an early Math beeline in a different light.
In fact, I may try the entire game in a different light. Normally, Writing would be my first tech in this situation, but I'm looking at Math.Edit: I was in a hurry and didn't proofread this. What I meant was I would shoot for a Philo beeline through Writing, while now I'm looking at a Math beeline instead. Sorry for any confusion. Normally, I'd hate to use ambush tactics due to the rep hit, but in this case, that's exactly what I'm considering. Normally, I'd positively despise settling on top of a resource, but in this case, I intend to.
I think this game may turn quite a few things upside down for me, so forgive me if I sound insane. I'm just going with the flow, watching the flying pigs, petting the pink elephants, and apparently smoking something I shouldn't be.
Last edited by ducki on 15-05-2004 at 01:03
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Madine
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I think Nathan's scouting plan is good.
Guaranteed ivory makes the SOZ too tempting to pass up.
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Dominae
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quote:
Originally posted by alexman
The Agricultural trait is hailed as the best trait in Civ3, but is it still useful even when you don’t start next to a river?
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Hm, does that mean the body of water to the Settler's East is a lake?!
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14-05-2004 19:47
Though that starting spot certainly does look like it will have some issues...
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