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nbarclay
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Huntsville, Alabama
Dec 1999
time: 23:36
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It's 900 BC, and I've done neither pillaging nor plundering so far. As much as I hate missing the theme for this game, I'm highly skeptical that this scenario is a good fit for its theme. With us starting so far from the Mongols, and the Mongols having a great starting position while we have a poor one, the range of different approaches to using pillaging effectively in this scenario is a lot smaller than it would be in a more evenly matched situation. By the time I was ready to start building pillagers, the Mongols were too big, with too much of a size advantage, for me to feel like sending pillagers down was likely to be worth the cost. And with the Mongols probably standing to gain at least as much as I would if I pillaged the other AIs, pillaging one of the others didn't seem like an especially worthwhile thing to do either.
I ended up building a barracks in my capital, followed by a handful of vet warriors for MPs in between settlers. I only have one Chasqui so far, and he's been staying near home. (The high point of his career was a raid on a barb camp.) I researched Mathematics, only to have one of the AIs extort it from me, with the end result that all I was able to get from it was Iron Working (and even that cost me a little gold). I'm now working on Currency, hoping I can trade it to catch up some in the tech race.
In the meantime, in what is very likely a mistake, I decided to make a bid for the Statue of Zeus. Even if I get it, I likely would have done better focusing on REXing and then on building conventional units. And there's a significant danger that I'll lose it in a wonder cascade. Still, the wonder will be nice to have if I do get it, and denying it to the Mongols would be worth something.
I'm up to six cities now, four of them (including the capital) with granaries. So even with the capital tied up with the SoZ, I'm hoping I can expand to take advantage of what little decent REXing territory is left available for me in a reasonable amount of time. Then I'll probably build up my military, try to line up an alliance against the Mongols, and hope that a combination of human skill and AI allies can overcome the considerable size difference between them and me.
Nathan
 Attachment: bc 900 dar 2.jpg
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Conqueror
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UAC research complex
Dec 2001
time: 07:36
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Research: after losing the race on Mysticism to Hittities by 1 turn, i again lose Polytheism to them by - surprise - 1 turn again !
I see that Monarchy would cost 50 turns, even with 100 %, so i go for Maths. Manage to research that first, and trade it to Vikes & Mongols. After this i choose to go 100 % on Currency. Nobody on our continent has researched Philosophy yet - i should have researched 100% on Philosophy  But too late now - propably. Someone who i dont know yet got to have researched it by now.
I'm quite confident of having SoZ, only 13 turns to go, unless someone from other landmasses builds it first, GL is most likely gone tho, Vikes are nearly done with it.
Hittities try to extort math and i refuse - they declare ofcourse. I buy alliance against them from my old enemy Mongolia.
Good amount of pillaging done in Hittite lands as seen on previous screenshot  I sure filled my quota of pillage, pillage, pillage 
Lessons learned - hm - how to use far away former AI city more effectively than before.
My opinion on Chasqui - its great unit with the reduced cost Very entertaining to use it on pillage purposes and run from AI to other side of hill/mountain.
Attachment: 1000bc_up.jpg
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nbarclay
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Huntsville, Alabama
Dec 1999
time: 23:36
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Moving a discussion here from the DAR 1 thread:
quote:
Originally posted by alexman
A choice? Of all things, it's kind of strange to hear a complaint about having to make a choice. I feel that the AU will not teach you as much as it could if you impose artificial restrictions like "use your Chasquis for pillaging". Instead, I tried to pick a map that makes Chasqui harassment a viable alternative to outright REXing. |
The thing that bothers me is not the idea of having to make choices, but rather the nature of the choices presented in this game. In my view, when an AU game is intended to explore a particular facet of Civ, the choices presented to players ought to encourage them to explore that facet. With a bit higher-production in the capital, players would still have had a choice of whether to focus their initial builds on REXing or on pillaging, but the choice to start off by building pillagers would not have set REXing back as much. Also, with higher production, players who started with a granary and a settler would have had a better chance to build pillagers afterward in time to do some good. Players would still have had choices, and the choices available would still have included not pillaging at all. But the choices available would have been more oriented a bit more toward the course's objective.
For players who decide to delay their pillaging expedition a bit, the huge difference between our starting position and the Mongols' creates an additional problem. When I built my granary, my plan was merely to delay my pillaging a bit. My idea was that although the delay would make the impact on my victims less crippling, I would avoid risking quite as early a GA and I'd be a bit farther ahead in my own REXing. But the difference between the Mongols' starting position and mine was so huge that my decision to delay pillaging ended up turning into a decision not to pillage at all. I suppose that can be considered a useful lesson regarding the risks of delaying pillaging, but it adds absolutely nothing to my actual pillaging experience.
Nathan
Last edited by nbarclay on 17-05-2004 at 23:48
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nbarclay
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Huntsville, Alabama
Dec 1999
time: 23:36
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quote:
Originally posted by alexman
So this whole rant about a poorly-designed scenario is because you wanted "a bit" more production in your capital? Just because you have made it a habit to build a Granary before anything else, you want that strategy to always be a good one? |
I'd appreciate it if you would try to avoid getting personal about this, and I'll try to do the same.
Contrary to your impression of me, I normally do build additional scouting units when I play Expansionist civs. With the better results Expansionists get from huts, building units for scouting is more attractive with Expansionist civs than with other civs. And that was my initial plan in this game.
But three things conspired to change my mind. (1) With the capital having to work a fish until its borders expanded unless I was willing to sacrifice growth, early production was so terrible that by the time I could have finished a Chasqui, my original scoult was finished exploring in one of the two available directions and could start exploring in the other. That made additional scouting capacity significantly less valuable than it would have been if I could have gotten a Chasqui or two out more quickly. (2) With low production, the time required to build early Chasquis before a granary would have cost more growth potential than it would have with higher production. (3) Without a particularly good site available for a second city, and without my first two cities being able to share a worker (at least unless I gave up on the idea of irrigating in a timely manner) the idea of a Chasqui-settler or Chasqui-Chasqui-settler build pattern was less attractive than it would have been otherwise.
Those factors, on top of routine concerns about GA timing (which, by the way, are also greater in a civ that grows slowly), led me to change my plans and build a granary first. But I arrived at that decision reluctantly as a departure from my original game plan, not as something I did automatically without thinking about the situation.
quote:
Pillaging is something that needs to be done urgently (that's why it's even harder to pull off at higher difficulty levels). |
Pillaging is definitely time-sensitive, but the combination of our having a lousy starting position and our nearest neighbor's having a very good one makes it a lot more time-sensitive in this game than it would be on average. That skews the learning experience.
quote:
If you get the option to pillage after you have set yourself up for REX, then pillaging becomes nothing other than an amusing tactic to win a game that you can already win more efficiently by other means - much like privateers are. |
Who says a game where a player can REX reasonably competitively can be won more efficiently without pillaging than with? That was one of the issues I'd hoped to explore with this course. It's starting to sound like what you've done is to superimpose your concept of the "proper" use of pillaging on the scenario's design, thereby preventing us from learning as much as we otherwise could about the use of pillaging in more normal games.
When I proposed the concept of an AU course focused on pillaging, my desire was to explore how useful pillaging is as a general, regular part of tactics for civs with good pillaging UUs and to explore the best ways to use pillaging in that context. What I wanted was a fairly normal game, the results of which would often be applicable to other fairly normal games.
What we got was a game where the pillaging concept is intertwined with another, largely separate issue: overcoming an exceptionally bad starting position. That leads to an interesting and challenging scenario, but intermixing such a large separate issue is going to make it a lot harder to figure out how what we learn applies in more normal games. Further, the scenario's rather extreme nature significantly limits the range of options that we can try and compare - and, in the process, led to my not getting anything I considered a "good" chance to pillage at all.
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Aeson
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orangesoda
Nov 2001
time: 22:36
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The Vikings decided I looked like an easy target, and demanded 22g from me. Normally I'd just give it to them, put them on the top of "the list" and continue on my way, but oh well. To War!
It took the Vikings a while to get anything to me, and when they did I was ready. I set up a kill zone just S of the Sugar Hills, all my expansion having been to the N so far. I had 2 Elite Archers waiting when their first Warrior and 2 Archers showed up, with a couple of Vets in reserve. I killed the Warrior and an Archer the first turn, then with my 4/5 HP Elite, killed the last Acher the next. Tupa...something something... showed up and took credit for the impressive victory!
Problem was I didn't want to fill an Army with Archers, and only had 3 cities anyways. So Tupa went and sat around waiting for me to get another city built. Writing finished, and I started on Iron Working at 100% (12 turns). With all those mountains there has to be Iron right? 
The Mongols didn't like my Chasqui wandering around in their territory, and demanded I remove it. This is one of the drawbacks of the Chasqui, as regular Scouts can stay in AI territory almost indefinitely. Bad luck ensued, and the place I was teleported to was next to a stack of Viking Warriors. They attacked, my Chasqui won and was promoted, and my GA started. Definitely wasn't planning on that.
I built my 4th city, and made an Army. I decided I would fill it with Chasqui Scouts, and no roads, mines, or irrigation shall survive! I only had 1 Chasqui at the time, far to the S, so I started building some more. The Vikings landed by the Oasis with a Sword and a Settler. Then they did something I've never seen before, they attacked and killed one of my Archers (I had 2 that had been cleaning up Barbs) on a Mountain with the Sword... and the Settler went off on it's own?!?! I dispatched of the Sword with my other Archer, and a newly built Chasqui loaded into the Army and captured the Settler. 
I finished Iron Working quickly due to my GA, and I went with a 4 turn CB, as I needed to expand some borders. After that I went with a 50 turn Mathmatics, as I planned on extorting the rest of the Ancient Era techs.
The Vikings landed again just a turn later, a Spear and Settler in the same spot. I pondered exploiting the Oasis of infinite Workers, but decided against it. I sent 2 more Archers, 2 Warriors, and a Settler to claim the penninsula. This time the Vikings just built their city (on the Oasis... duh). My mini-SOD was able to destroy the city (just barely, last Warrior took out the Spear), and I planted my own. Just not on the Oasis..
The Mongols set up an Embassy with me, and I noticed that they were at war with the Hittites. I set up an Embassy with the Hittites, and they were willing to part with more than the Mongols for my help. First I made peace with the Vikings though, getting Mysticism for a few gold. Then I signed up against the Mongols for Literature + 16g. The Vikings are at war with the Hittites too, so this should be interesting.
I added 2 more Chasqui to my Army, and sent it off S. The Mongols shall pay dearly! 
(I know this is a terrible exploit of the AI... an Army with almost no defense running around AI territory practically invulnerable... but it's just too much fun... can't wait until all my 'little' Chasqui start hiding underneath it! )
Attachment: 1000bc.jpg
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Tarquinius
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First off I want to say I really like the rough map
Although I usually play dry maps, I never make 'em 3 billion years old! I played this one on Monarch with AU mod. As my internet connection at home is not working properly at the moment I cannot post any screenies or DAR's.
I am suprised nbarclay thinks pillaging is no good on this map. When I saw the numerous hills and mountains near me, and the reduced possibilites of getting a lot of food, I realized I had to harrass the enemy as soon as possible!
I always build a granary as quickly as possible, (usually after two warriors/scouts) but I decided to build two chasqui' s first, then built a barracks, settler, and a lot of Chasqui scouts. I captured the mongol worker, pillaged their ivory and cows. Then I made peace to them, and then I saw the Mongols burning a Hitite city! I decided to join in and pillaged all the Hitite squares, and captured their workers, and a settler. Later on I managed to capture their capital and thay were of no importance anymore.
Then I realized there was another civ on the continent! The Mongols grew really slow, because they built so many units instead of settlers. But the Vikings were left untouched and were quite big. I decided I would do a major raid on them
When I had readied 5 Chasquis near them, and one in their territory I declared war and pillaged nearly every tile.
I captured a few workers as well, and disbanded them. I bought the Mongols in and they wasted a large number of archers against each other (no Iron for the Vikings anymore )
I am amazed how strong pillaging is...although I sacrificed my own growth, I had crippled all the AI' s, so that they were in the same pitiful state as me 
With statue of Zeus ready I was ready to kick major butt...but I will continue later, in another thread. (I already passed the DAR limit for this thread anyway, my war against the Vikings was around 600 BC)
Thanks for this relevation Alexman, I learned a new type of play! And it is really weird...the pace of the game is sooo slow...the other continent is far ahead of me. (I know because of the wonders) I really am going to try the Zulus a few times. (on a different map of course)
(BTW: I think Alexman put the ivory in both our and the Mongol territory, to encourage pillaging the Mongols, so the player can build the Statue of Zeus in peace.)
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LzPrst
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Mars Colony
Apr 2001
time: 05:36
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this time it worked out a little better. same as before except started out with chasqui's. sent one to mongrel and one to hittite. the hittites were taken with their pants down by a warrior I found in a hut, they lost all improvements to that little fellow. then I stole 2 workers from the mongrels and sent them home to build me a road. after a while I accepted peace with both civs, having given especially mongol a run for their improvements shortly thereafter a group of 3 mongol workers were out slaving in the fields. an executive desicion led to their inclusion in the inca empire.
then the vikings decided that my hard-earned philosophy belonged to them and declared war on me. a suicide chasqui made it quite far and pillaged a lot before he was finally cornered north of trondheim and slain, after killing 2 archers. if that doesnt warrant a heroic epic, what does?
all in all the mongols are reduced, theyre not nearly as large or as advanced as they were in my initial attempts a short pointless war with the vikings may have also helped stunt their growth, the hittites are a little backward but the vikings are potentially a big threat, luckily their land isnt too good so I think I can beat them.
thats all for now.
hitttite and mongol both have a mere 4 cities while I have 5 and the vikings 6, though they're probably beating themselves over the head regretting not having the industrious trait. suckers.
the biggest problem is the jungle to my south, not much hope of expansion there.
and yeah, I forgot, got my GA triggered rather early, but nothing to do about that now. I am planning to build a large army of swords and spears and cracking mongols head in. then I might relocate my capital...
only problem is, what about the other two...
am building SoZ, it will be done just about never, but at least I'm building it.
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ducki
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Alright, in 1675, after positioning my forces, I pillage the Mongols' Ivory with a scout, nab a worker with a warrior, one Chasqui retreats from a warrior guarding a worker while the second Chasqui wins handily. The scout, worker, and conscript warrior move to cover the injured Chasqui, leaving the uninjured one feeling mighty lonely in the open plains next to Karakorum. Tactically, I'm not sure who I should have guarded, but the healthy one still has a chance to retreat. Plus....
I buy Ragnar's services with Ironworking, The Wheel, and Mysticism, while he throws 25 gold to my messenger, presumably as a tip.
And Ragnar has troops nearby from a recent barbarian hunt, so "reinforcements" are at hand. I hope.
The Golden Age brings completion on the SoZ down to 54 turns. I could bring it down to 39 if I was willing to stunt growth, but I pass for now. Machu Picchu, my city by the lake, abandons construction of a barracks in favor of another Chasqui, to complete in 2 turns. Tiwanaku maintains focus on its Granary and has one worker and one slave improving its area. The original worker is still bringing water through the desert to the capitol. "When I'm kicking you that means dig FASTER!"
Ahh! My Conscript warrior fends of an archer with no damage! Glory be!
I pair my Conscript warrior with the healthy Chasqui - the Chasqui moves and pillages and the warrior follows to guard, though I should have paired him with the scout scout. Duh.
In 1475, a Chasqui sacks Ta-tu, stealing 2 gold and humiliating the Mongols. Strike that. That wasn't Ta-tu. It was some other town in the jungle. Ta-tu is next up, but probably has a spearman.
1375BC - the Chinese complete the Oracle - first wonder of the game.
1150BC - Our Golden Age ends, as does our Alliance with Ragnar. The damn fool honored the full 20 turns. Grr. Time for peace, naturally, now that I've got swordsmen running around. 
Since my age of pillaging is over and the usefulness of the Chasqui is at an end, I recklessly attack an Elite Archer and a Vet Archer. I kill the vet, but retreat from the Elite. Hehe.
For peace, I can take Ta-tu, Horseback Riding(of little value without horses, but required for advancement, and 19 gold. Alternately, I can take the town of Hovd, just SE of Mongol capitol instead of HBR.
Ta-tu is a cruddy town, but if I rush a temple, I may be able to annex some horses. It's too far from home to be much use production-wise, but I can set it on 10-turn workers if nothing else while the Temple does it's thing....
Hovd would be purely a machiavellian ploy. I'd gift it to the Hittites to cause friction, or the Vikings to increase it.
Also, I'm 21 turns from the SoZ. The Mongols were working on the Pyramids when I built the Embassy and I pillaged every square they had even close to the capitol. I'm only 4 turns from the Colossus, which lasts much longer and provides a more flexible reward. Acquiring horses may be difficult, but if the iron holds out, I think I can make do without mounted troops, worst case.
It was a bit late in coming, but my pillaging rampage was quite productive. I've sowed discontent between the Vikings and Mongols, I think. I removed all tile improvements within view of the capitol, and took 2 slaves, killed a scout, a few archers and a couple of warriors, razed a town, irrigated my capitol, built most of a wonder, added a town to my desert, connected my iron and generally had a whale of a time.
It's not Aeson-level AI-squishing, but definitely a nice tool to have in the bag.
I think I'll sleep on it...
I take Ta-tu, Hovd, and 19gold. I'll give Hovd away, probably to the Hittites. I wonder if that will influence the direction of their expansion...
Anyway, I could easily press the war on the Mongols, but would rather get back to expansion.
I decide to trade Ragnar Polytheism for HBR and a RoP. I want to be his best friend, since I can't take him out before Berserks and he's the only one without Poly.
Research Monarchy at 50 turn base - can't quite afford 43.(Actually, the two Mongol towns push me to 46-turn pace. Changing each citizen to a scientist pushes me to 32. Since corruption makes these pointless(mostly), I think I'll take the beakers for now. I wonder how long I can keep Hovd before it flips...
Mursilis and I both have Currency on the other two.
Arrrgh!!!! 1125 BC. One turn after I make peace with the Mongols(and sign an RoP with Ragnar), the Vikings make peace and turn on me, demanding Currency. Gaah!!!!!
Then I notice my advisor. I'm sorry to disappoint you, Ragnar, but I will not be bullied by the likes of you.... yet. Ours will be a friendship of equals.... until you discover Invention.
In 1075BC, I change my mind on the SoZ and switch to the Colossus, wasting 1 shield(because I'm an idiot and forgot last turn) and finishing in 1050BC. I decided +1gpt/tile until Flight was worth more to me than the ACav, and I still have a shot at the Statue if I want it, though "better" wonders are around the corner...
Cuzco begins a settler that will complete one turn after Tiwanaku's, so Tiwanaku can start to fill out the Northern Peninsula before the Vikings get any ideas and Cuzco can work on the south before the Hittites head north. I hope. I sure with I could magically have a temple, harbor, and galley from a couple of towns.
In 1025BC, a barbarian gathering is found near the dyes, which will require dispatching Cuzco's MP and force the luxury slider up. Glad I built the Colossus.
In 1000BC, the Hittites demand half our treasury, and being unsure whether they have horses or not, I give in, but add this incident to my list.
The empire is virtually unchaged from the last DAR, but here it is anyway.
NM clear your PMs, please.
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Aqualung71
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Lord Desolator of the Desolation Row, C3CDG
Oct 2002
time: 12:36
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2. Let’s Go a-Pillaging
Continuing on from unfinished business, our CS left the Mongols’ raped lands and headed towards Hittit-ania. They then proceeded to pillage a few squares and nabbed a worker in the process, who then picked his way carefully home accompanied by a CS. Our pillaging soon petered out having lost the element of surprise, but not before we had disconnected their Incense and pillaged their sugar and wheat tiles. The Mongols and Hittites are almost out of the game now and only the Vikings remain a threat on our home continent. We have 23 turns to go on the SoZ and then plan to send our AC after the Vikings.
Scores at 1000BC were somewhat lower, but with less range. Our Incas were 173, Vikings topped out at 272, with the Mongols at 215 and the Hittites at 193. This was a clear improvement over the other game, though some of this was due to our GA.
Another telling statistic is that the Mongols and Hittites were reduced to 3 and 2 towns respectively, through a combination of their own fighting and the economic slowdown as a result of Inca pillaging and worker-snatching.
Our 4 captured workers are now contributing nicely to development, making up for our inability to build sufficient workers due to the generally unproductive home terrain.
We only have 4 towns, partly because our capital is building the SoZ and cannot pump out settlers.
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Strollen
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AU Mod Emperor
My 2nd attempt at pillaging the Mongols works better than the first. The key was diplomacy. At the start of the war, I had 2 CS in position to strike the Mongols and 3rd coming down from the Vikings.
My tech advantage was fairly significant, the mongols had everything. But the Hittites lacked Horseback riding, and Masonry and the Vikings needed Horseback riding. The Hittites joined the war for Masonry and even gave my 22G. The Vikings price to ally was too expensive. So I sold them Horseback riding for 45, just to prevent the Mongols for using it to buy their alliance.
My first strike was good, one CS grabbed 2 workers, while the other CS pillaged the ivory. After that the CS basically sat up in the hills and made sure the Mongols could see them in order for their army to come chase me, and keep there workers at home.
Far more important, was the damaged caused by the Hittites the quickly sacked 2 viking towns. I then used my scout to pillage the road from the sacked towns back to the Karakorum. He cut 3 roads before he was eventually killed.
My CS were eventually forced north (I was worried about my Mongol workers making it past the Barbs.) At one point the Mongols were prepared to offer me 80G for peace. But since I still had 6 turns on my alliance with Hittites I declined. The situation turned worse for me when the Vikings joined the Mongols. The Hittites honorably refused to extend our alliance and than the next turn or so made peace with the Mongols. Now it was going to cost me 150G to make peace with both the Vikings and the Mongols. I fought a brief skirmish with the Vikings in the jungle near my lake city.
I then made peace using my recently discovered Math instead of cash. I still ended up with Map Making, Code of Laws, and Mysticism. But instead of getting a lot of money, like I normally would I ended losing about ~50g.
Overall I'd say the Mongols were the clear losers, losing 2 cities stopping improvements for 15+ turns. I picked up 2 workers but gave up ~200G in lost trade. The big winners were Hittites who gained a Mongol city and gained a good trade with me and the Mongols.
I'll continue past 1000 BC...
Domestically Cuzco, started pre building SOZ. (I've long thought the AU mods went overboard in nerfing this Wonder removing the Hit point, AND making it 300 shields is too much doing one or the other should be sufficient.)
The lake city rush build a granary (probably a mistake since there aren't enough good settler sites.) and started pumping out workers and settlers. My 5th city was established by the fish in the northern peninsula ... What cruel map an oasis with no source of fresh water..
In 570 BC I built the SOZ, gee a mere 230 years after the Portugese built the Hanging Gardens..
I realized how backwards my poor nation when Cuzuco after finishing SOZ and reaching size 6 wasn't growing. Damn not on a river, I need to build an aqueduct. No problem aqueducts are 1/2 price for us Ag civilizations. Opps how come I can't build an aqueduct? oh right I am 24 turns away from Construction at max research...
This maybe the game I experiment with Feudalism. My next 3 city sites are the Iron between Mongols and the Vikings, the silk luxury and the good area north of the Mongols. Then war I think.
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Catt
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California - SF Bay Area
May 2002
time: 21:36
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I'm through Steam Power after some playing this weekend and will try to pull DARs together over the next several days (I am pressed for time and know I don't have a tremendous amount of notes or screenshots -- some pillaging focus and results, but I blew through 2150 BC and 1000 BC without pausing to assess and capture screens for the DARs). In the meantime, I am reading through the first few DAR threads.
quote:
Originally posted by Nuclear Master
Could you guys take it out of the DAR's? If this needs to take place, it should go in a different thread. |
I disagree and say keep it up. I think the DAR threads are the right place for this sort of discussion -- we already have multiple DAR threads / post-game threads for each course, and the running commentary and viewpoints seem to me to work well within the DAR concept -- I'd hate to just read through DARs without the (to me) very valuable and enlightening discussion on how or why the course topic might or might not be especially suited to the game circumstances -- that opens up all sorts of deeper thought on the effectiveness or lack thereof of the course subject. Having to jump to a different thread, devoid of the context that inspired the views, would be less straightforward.
The back-and-forth between alexman and nathan contains some of the better insights into game approaches, the strengths and weaknesses of pillaging as a tactic, and how to address map conditions that might very much influence one's approach. So long as it remains civil, these are the sorts of discussions that really inform, IMHO, even if not directly focused on "pillaging" as a generic concept (instead on pillaging in the context of this particular game set-up).
Catt
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nbarclay
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Huntsville, Alabama
Dec 1999
time: 23:36
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My hopes that my ultra-early GA would catch me up on REXing didn't work out as well as I'd hoped they would, but they came fairly close - and would have come closer if the settler that was supposed to build my fifth core city hadn't run into a barb camp. (The settler was unescorted, but with two horsemen and three warriors in the barb camp, a warrior or Chasqui escort would not have faced good odds.) Perhaps the biggest difference in my REXing status is that I had about sixty shields toward the Statue of Zeus in my first game but hadn't started it yet (and had pretty much decided not to, given the delay) in the second.
On the other hand, even though my pillaging effort against the Mongols wasn't as effective as most (partly because I'm a novice at pillaging tactics and partly because my luck didn't work out as well as it could have), the Mongols were left significantly weaker in my replay. I also put a nice dent in the Hittites, stumbling across and destroying an undefended town and then getting another town in the peace negotiations that followed. (Why couldn't it have been the Mongols I was able to do that with? ) So that left me a more favorable overall balance of power on my own continent than in the first game - aside from the fact that I no longer had my GA available to assist in later warfare.
I've since played the game to 130 BC, but there is little chance I'll play it farther. As usually happens when I try to replay a game, I wasn't nearly as focused as I was the first time around. If things had gone like I'd hoped they would, that woudn't have been a big deal. But a decision or two I made without thinking things through carefully ended up not working out. So even if I'd play the second game out, I wouldn't feel like the result was an apples-and-apples comparison because the first game would be a lot closer to my best effort than the second (at least insofar as focus and being careful about what I'm doing are concerned).
Nathan
Attachment: bc 1000 dar 2.jpg
This has been downloaded 116 time(s).
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Sabular
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AU MOD - Regent
With the Hittites and Mongols marginalized, I decided to send a Chasqui scout into Viking territory, he was able to snag a worker and pillage most terrain improvements, but because of the cramped geography of the Viking lands and their being reasonably developed generally, my scout was quickly lost. I had hindered the Vikings somewhat but had definitely not crippled them as I had done the others. I made peace with the Vikings as they approached my entirely defenseless lands with a horde of units.
The game was sort of progressing slowly with neither of the four of us in a terribly good position, with the Vikings obviously ahead. Then something incredible happened: the invention of mathematics got me an SGL!
My first impulse was to rush the pyramids, as I would get the SoZ anyway. When I thought about it however, I came to the conclusion that I could probably use the incessant stream of uber-units from the SoZ better than the increased growth from the Pyramids. I then finished the SoZ in approx. 1250 BC.
(Although (not having seen how the alternative would have played out) I cannot say this has been the right decision, it has worked out very well as I have conquered my entire continent without building a single offensive unit past my initial Chasqui Scouts)
By this time both the Hittites and the Mongols have sent some spearmen to my borders, in the case of the Hittites accompanied by a pile of archers.
My first Ancient Cavalries now also experience how annoying high defense "pillagers" can be as the the spearmen are met on the jungle/hills/mountains on my southern borders. Knowing that their spearmen will not attack my units I construct a living wall of Chasqui Scouts and Ancient Cavalries. After a while however I realize I am making the same mistake as the AI, letting a small amount of units tie up much more units and I decide to wipe out the offending units. As expected this is not without casualties on my side but my Ancient Cavalries are now freed up for an offensive manouevre.
With the SoZ continually pumping out Ancient Cavalries, the future is looking bleak indeed for both the Hittites and the Mongols and their pathetically small empires. Without the irrigation my empire is not incredibly productive and my growth is somewhat slow, yet I can continually expand as I do not have to focus on my military. I am confident things will turn out to be allright.
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ducki
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quote:
Without the irrigation my empire is not incredibly productive and my growth is somewhat slow |
I almost posted this to your DAR1, but something that might not be completely intuitive is to use a temporary city...
Drop a city on the hill, begin irrigating, then next turn, abandon the city. You don't have to keep the city there while your worker irrigates, just long enough for him to begin.
Sure, you lose a settler, but you gain water.
Still a tough choice if that's not a good spot for a permanent city in your planned expansion, but something to consider.
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Strollen
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quote:
I almost posted this to your DAR1, but something that might not be completely intuitive is to use a temporary city... |
I considered doing this, but I later found there was no need.
Clearing jungle, marsh is so labor intensive that you are hard pressed to keep up with the cities growth especially with the AG trait. from less than Size 7 a city grows every 7 turns. That requires ~5 workers to keep up, clearing jungle, roading and mining it Having some of the squares being irrigated only aggravates the problem. Having cities work jungle squares is very unproductive.
I figure by the time I really need to juice up my cities growth, electricty will be close.
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Sabular
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quote:
Drop a city on the hill, begin irrigating, then next turn, abandon the city. You don't have to keep the city there while your worker irrigates, just long enough for him to begin. |
Thanks for the advise Ducki, I never knew you could abandon cities, since building Settlers in 2-pop cities is not possible. I assume there would be an option in the right-click menu?
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nbarclay
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Huntsville, Alabama
Dec 1999
time: 23:36
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quote:
Originally posted by Sabular
Thanks for the advise Ducki, I never knew you could abandon cities, since building Settlers in 2-pop cities is not possible. I assume there would be an option in the right-click menu? |
Yes, there is. It's at the bottom of the menu for empty cities, or just above the "View Civilopedia entry for..." option for cities with units in them.
Unfortunately, in C3C, abandoning a city leaves a pile of rubble and you have to start from scratch improving the tile. (Once a tile improvement is in place, the rubble is cleared.) One trick I use occasionally if it's convenient is to use part of a worker's movement to move it into the city I'm abandoning before I abandon it and then start the worker roading the tile the same turn, thereby getting the benefit from the fact that the city's road doesn't disappear until the city is disbanded. Sometimes, especially with railroads and a bunch of workers with nothing better to do, I'll even move in multiple workers so I can build the road in a single turn.
Nathan
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16-05-2004 17:33
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