18-05-2004 17:13									#1
	If I eliminate a civ does that hurt rep? Put an end to popups!

I started a completely random game (with the graphics mods - cool) and ended up on an island with just the French - galleys had to stop 4 turns in ocean squares before contacting any other landmass.

Anyway, I made a gpt deal with France to get all their tech, then I broke the deal and eliminated them. I read somewhere once that if you get rid of them before they make contact, nobody will know you were bad and your rep will be ok... is this the case in 1.22 C3C?

	18-05-2004 20:46									#2
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Yes, it is, AFAIK.

	18-05-2004 21:10									#3
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Yep it's still the case. In the strategy forum it's known as the Arrian Deception.

	18-05-2004 21:54									#4
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On the other hand if you eliminate a civ that HAS made contact with others, your reputation is screwed for most of the rest of the game....

	18-05-2004 23:59									#5
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Is that elimination in general?

What if a civ declares war on you and you proceed to wipe them off the map? Is this considered a negative?

	19-05-2004 00:37									#6
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Not unless you raze any of their cities, IIRC. You only get rep hits for breaking treaties, declaring war when you've got troops in their territory, or razing their cities.

	19-05-2004 00:40									#7
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I didn't know about this little gem. Nice.

	19-05-2004 02:01									#8
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quote: Originally posted by Last Conformist Not unless you raze any of their cities, IIRC. You only get rep hits for breaking treaties, declaring war when you've got troops in their territory, or razing their cities.

ummm....yea....like....

i may have done some or all of those things in my current game

	19-05-2004 02:02									#9
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quote: Originally posted by Last Conformist Not unless you raze any of their cities, IIRC. You only get rep hits for breaking treaties, declaring war when you've got troops in their territory, or razing their cities.

I'm pretty sure that if you knock a Civ completely out of the game the AI looks at it as some sort of genocide.

So they will both hate and fear you

	19-05-2004 02:07									#10
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quote: Originally posted by spy14 So they will both hate and fear you

Which makes it much easier to demand and expect tribute.

	19-05-2004 03:30									#11
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quote: Originally posted by spy14 I'm pretty sure that if you knock a Civ completely out of the game the AI looks at it as some sort of genocide. So they will both hate and fear you

I'm not positive, but I believe that a true reputation hit will only happen if you are in an military alliance involving a per turn deal (gpt, resources, etc.) with another nation and you annihilate the first nation. The alliance is considered broken along with the per-turn deal and all nations will look upon it as if you broke the deal. If the alliance you have does not involve a per-turn deal when you annihilate the first nation then it shouldn't give you a reputation hit.

	19-05-2004 10:11									#12
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Does the auto-razing of 1 pop cities count against your rep?

I thought that when a deal is broken by the death of a civ, the other civ in the deal gets the rep hit...at least it's that way with the human player.

	19-05-2004 19:16									#13
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There is reputation, and then there is AI attitude.

There is a great AI attitude article over at CFC. Check it out.

Anyway, frankly the AI's attitude (gracious, polite, cautious, annoyed, furious) towards you means next to nothing, IMO. I've been sneak attacked via RoP by gracious allies, and I've maintained millenia of peace with furious enemies.

Reputation is all about trading. Unfortunately, you cannot directly see your reputation in CivIII like you could in CivII, but it's there in the sense that AI's remember if you've broken deals (except in the case of the aforementioned deception, when you wipe out the civ(s) that know about your backstabbing).

You can have a perfect reputation, and all the AI's can be furious with you. The thing is, a furious AI will still trade with you if your rep is good. A gracious AI will not trade with you (you paying via per-turn gold or resource in exchange for something up front) if your reputation is shot.

Many things negatively effect AI attitude, such as razing cities (to my knowledge, unfortunately, autorazing counts), violating borders, declaring war, and I think wiping out civs. You can boost AI attitude via trades, gifts and alliances. The exact breakdown is over at CFC.

But like I said, IMO, their attitude is just about meaningless. It's your reputation that matters.

-Arrian, the deceiver (I actually haven't done that in ages)

	19-05-2004 22:41									#14
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quote: Originally posted by Switch Does the auto-razing of 1 pop cities count against your rep? I thought that when a deal is broken by the death of a civ, the other civ in the deal gets the rep hit...at least it's that way with the human player.

Auto razing of one pop towns no longer happens in C3C IIRC.

As for the second point all I know for sure is that if you eliminate said Civ, you will take a hard rep hit for breaking deals. Which to me is a major bug - surely the war can end but you be allowed to meet your per-turn commitments.

	19-05-2004 23:02									#15
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Wait, wait... let me get this right: If you have a trade deal with a civ, and another civ wipes out that civ, you get a rep hit as if you broke the deal?

	20-05-2004 00:37									#16
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If you wipe out said Civ you definately do. If another AI wipes them out I'm not sure if there is consequence to the human.

	20-05-2004 00:49									#17
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There was a thread about this in the C3C forum, and it was found that if you are trading with an AI civ, viz. resources, gpt, &c., and another AI eliminates the civ with which you have a deal with, you get a rep-hit for breaking the said deals. This was done to avoid exploits where a player would trade gpt for a non-per-turn item, anticipating its demise via the third civ, and so reaping the benefits without much loss.

	20-05-2004 01:04									#18
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov Wait, wait... let me get this right: If you have a trade deal with a civ, and another civ wipes out that civ, you get a rep hit as if you broke the deal?

They don't even have to be wiped out, Boris. The trade connection just has to be cut (via them losing their port city, or a road getting cut... hell, it's possible for this to happen as a result of a volcano erupting and nailing a particular roaded tile).

This, however, has been noted by Firaxis and they deliberately left it in, citing potential exploitation if the human player wasn't penalized for such things. You could sign a deal giving iron to an AI you knew wasn't going to last more than a couple of turns in exchange for a tech. Actually, I've done that. But then I killed everyone who knew about it.

-Arrian

	20-05-2004 01:07									#19
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That sucks. Bad programming.

	20-05-2004 01:36									#20
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Before realizing this I got caught by this frequently. I was in the habit of trading cheaply to civs on their last leg to try to prop them up in wars to prevent KAIs. Since it’s particularly hard to know if they have 20 turns left on the planet when they're on another continent - next thing I knew, I’ve broken a trade deal.

	20-05-2004 01:37									#21
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Yeah, pretty much. It is what it is. Be aware of it and work around it.

I've actually "invaded" a trading partner to form a line of units to prevent said trading partner from being overrun.

-Arrian

	20-05-2004 02:07									#22
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Autoraze is still in C3C - I took had to take a couple AI outposts last week, and sure enough they got autorazed.

I'm fairly positive than wiping out a civ as such does not affect either attitude nor reputation.

	20-05-2004 02:19									#23
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Autoraze is disabled in certain Conquests scenarios (Rise of Rome, for example), but it's still there in the Epic Game, AFAIK.

-Arrian

	20-05-2004 04:56									#24
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quote: Originally posted by Arrian You could sign a deal giving iron to an AI you knew wasn't going to last more than a couple of turns in exchange for a tech. Actually, I've done that. But then I killed everyone who knew about it. -Arrian

Ah "the deception", how sweet it is......

	20-05-2004 14:08									#25
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quote: Originally posted by Arrian Autoraze is disabled in certain Conquests scenarios (Rise of Rome, for example), but it's still there in the Epic Game, AFAIK.

Do you know how one would go about disabling it in a scenario of one's own?

	20-05-2004 16:44									#26
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I don't, actually, but I believe it can be done with the editor. I just haven't made an scenarios, so I don't know exactly how.

-Arrian