04-10-2004 05:55									#211
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So what license should we be looking for? And how should we ask for it?

	05-10-2004 02:34									#212
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At this point I would say "GPL"* but there is an entire dessert menu of open source licenses available. Some more specific and limiting than others. A good point to start is www.opensource.org.


So preferably one where the code can be shared (distributed) without legal hassle. You would want to have the freedom to let "outsiders" (people who don't have the original) to be able to play it and tinker with the code.

At this point we haven't made official contact yet so we can come up with suitable solution. We could propose that they seperate the code and graphics side (apart from the DLL's) The graphics could be left copyrighted while the code itself could be released under the GPL. The orginal game can be released as freeware (still copyrighted) and the source code is available for the codetinkerers and the true fans.

An ideal situation would be two releases. One releasing the game (binaries) with all the graphics as freeware (free to be distributed but not for commercial resale) and two releasing the source code under GPL.






* Actually the best "license" to release it under would be to release it as public domain. No legal hassle whatsoever, but it also means that anyone can do what he/she/it wants with it.

	05-10-2004 02:39									#213
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P.S
An alternative is buying the code and rights to Civ2/ToT ourselves for a symbolic fee.

That's not likely, but it happens on a rare occasion.

	05-10-2004 05:01									#214
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Well, I'm no programmer, but I think what we really need is just the code for the executables, the dat files, and the pedia files. We already work with everything else.

The graphics are not needed, that is unless the way the graphics interact with the executables is copyrighted.

Ideally, I think we just need to know how and why such things as the events and units files are limited. Then write code to expand and improve upon the interaction and range.

	05-10-2004 05:50									#215
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Extend the amount of playable civs would be my personal first priority

	05-10-2004 16:15									#216
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Being able to have more events would be my second.

John Ellis recently ran into the brick wall on that with Colonies IV, he had to prioritize and select which events to use instead of using everything he wanted to do.

Has anyone at all heard from Javier? Its been well over a month. I hope he is alright because this is very unlike him..............

	06-10-2004 03:05									#217
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Increase the max # of cities comes to mind also.

	07-10-2004 00:30									#218
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All very good gameplay related points, worthy of discussion, but shouldn't this wait until AFTER you get the code?

	07-10-2004 00:56									#219
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Yes, no reason to get excited now and cry later.

	07-10-2004 03:35									#220
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It's the dream that has gotten us this far

But sure, no need to get our expectations too high...

	07-10-2004 20:05									#221
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One more thing- though we dont have the code yet:

I would love to have real Artillery and Plane - Bombing, as in Civ3! Planes and Cars carrying missiles would be the solution. I would love it!

	07-10-2004 20:22									#222
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ok, ok, give me material for the letter, we can put a wish list together later

	07-10-2004 21:46									#223
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quote: Originally posted by Cifer Almasy One more thing- though we dont have the code yet: I would love to have real Artillery and Plane - Bombing, as in Civ3! Planes and Cars carrying missiles would be the solution. I would love it!

I´d like to second that idea.

Maybe the difference between a rocket-carrying sub and a plane-carrying flat top should be in there as well

	08-10-2004 17:24									#224
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quote: Originally posted by Harry Tuttle ok, ok, give me material for the letter, we can put a wish list together later

ok, so what kind of material we're need now?

	08-10-2004 18:12									#225
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More reasons for releasing the code, the specifics of the files that we want & need (I say no graphics or text files), and a list of proper names for the websites involved.

Those would be my choices.

	08-10-2004 18:35									#226
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Graphics isn't so important because we've got many more other than original. Text.. hm.. I think it's more important than graphics.

	08-10-2004 19:32									#227
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I think that all kinda comes with the source code. The specifics of the conditions under which they'll be released (or not) is something that will have to be discussed further when we have successfully contacted them. It would be part of license "negotiations", if they really want any. Otherwise it's purely at the discretion of the code owners.

I don't think we should really make any demands on the license just yet. Doing so, I'd imagine, would only decrease the chance of getting the code released at all.

I don't agree with CapTVK about the license, but he does know his stuff.


Oh, and my site would be:
Mercator's Civilization2 Site

	13-10-2004 21:54									#228
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Finding the right contacts would be the prime concern for now. Find out who´s who and has the authority to back up a decision.

Contact first, code request 2nd, licence 3th.


Initially they´ll probably say no or wave if off and see if it goes away. You might have to do a spot of lobbying. A nice oneliner at this point is that the 10th anniversary of Civ2 (end of 1995) is drawing near. So, why not give a gift to the public.


General advice : become friends with the boss´s boss.


Mercator,
Thanks, if it all pans out we might actually have to start a discussion about which licence is best suited. I´ll be waiting for the debate.

P.S
The HCC is coming again in Utrecht nov 12-14th. Time for another meet? [

	15-10-2004 01:54									#229
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quote: Has anyone at all heard from Javier? Its been well over a month. I hope he is alright because this is very unlike him..............

Pablostuka has posted a thread at the Spanish Site informing us that he's not just busy but awfully busy at job (according to Pablostuka, his bosses want to send Javier to Siberia ).

Yaroslav hopes that he'll be back in November.

	15-10-2004 02:06									#230
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Exactly. I just phoned yaroslav 1 hour ago (after lots of tries). he is extremely busy at work, and he doesn't even have time to turn on the computer. He expects the situation to end by November.

And yes, that Siberia thing is right...

	15-10-2004 07:19									#231
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quote: Originally posted by Pablostuka Exactly. I just phoned yaroslav 1 hour ago (after lots of tries). he is extremely busy at work, and he doesn't even have time to turn on the computer. He expects the situation to end by November. And yes, that Siberia thing is right...

Thank God, I thought he was dead or something. Yaro has always been an incredible part of Civ2 modding and I'd hate for him to go. Also, on a side note, he's a really nice guy, too.

	16-10-2004 16:50									#232
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In the meantime I suggest we work on the letter and a plan! Now that Atari is owned by Infogrames they've started to defend their IP very agressively. Tread carefully...



(Note to self) : Hmmm, better keep a close eye on their legal dealings. Seeing as they own and protect Civilization as a brand as well.

http://www.oreillynet.com/pub/wlg/5672

quote: The four games Infrogrames asked AtariAge to remove are clear derivatives of old Atari titles. It's not clear that anyone would legitimately confuse them with the official Atari versions, but I can understand why a copyright or trademark holder would be leery about allowing distribution of something so close to an existing product. Reproductions are a similar situation. If there's code or artwork involved, Infogrames has a strong position to ask people not to distribute these products. ....snip.... How could this be a good thing for homebrew game development? Perhaps it will encourage developers to come up with their own ideas, instead of creating clone after clone. If that happens -- if the homebrew community demonstrates that it's willing to keep old consoles and platforms alive long past the point of mass-market commercial viability -- perhaps the publishers will be willing to make their development kits, hardware documentation, and even some source code public more often. At least, homebrew communities that show more respect for copyrights and trademarks will have a better moral ground from which to make that case. chromatic is the technical editor of the O'Reilly Network.

	17-10-2004 02:22									#233
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quote: Originally posted by Pablostuka Exactly. I just phoned yaroslav 1 hour ago (after lots of tries). he is extremely busy at work, and he doesn't even have time to turn on the computer. He expects the situation to end by November. And yes, that Siberia thing is right...

Muchas gracias Pablo! I was getting worried too!

I hope he will come back from the gulag... (talk about immersion in the Red Front demo game...)

And I agree with Harry, Javier definitely is a nice guy we really need in this community!

	19-10-2004 20:59									#234
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Im not there!

	20-10-2004 14:30									#235
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Speaking of phoning - I think our next stage should be actually
trying to get talking to some human being at the atari company.

Bringing the petition to their attention, or getting a staff email may help our cause a great deal.

PS
I have a good phone manner!

	20-10-2004 14:47									#236
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quote: Originally posted by jasev Pablostuka has posted a thread at the Spanish Site informing us that he's not just busy but awfully busy at job (according to Pablostuka, his bosses want to send Javier to Siberia ). Yaroslav hopes that he'll be back in November.

Siberia? Cool! I wish I could go! Great Hunting and fishing.

Javier is probably going to have to import the women however

	20-10-2004 22:48									#237
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Having the support of Jeff Brigs or Bryan Reynolds would also help...

	30-10-2004 04:43									#238
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Is this thing still rolling or am I to late again.

	30-10-2004 04:45									#239
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The code-petition campaign is ongoing, Jim!

	01-11-2004 09:56									#240
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I wonder if the source code is even still stored? I suspect it has probably been lost forever.