20-05-2004 02:24									#1
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I'm getting back into Civ3 after not playing for a long, long time. I originally bought Civ3 the day it came out, and played for a few months, but I really haven't played much since then. I just bought Conquests, and I'm playing my first game now as the Byzantines on Monarch. Anyway, I'm trying to find the exact details of how the civ traits have changed in Conquests from the base game. The Civolepedia doesn't give enough detail, and I've been looking through the forums here but I haven't found a comprehensive description. Here is my understanding - if anyone who knows the details can fill in the blanks or correct what I might have wrong, I'd appreciate it!

Militaristic - No real change - half-priced military buildings and more frequent upgrades. Weakened indirectly because MGL's can't rush wonders, but this is partially offset by armies being more powerful. Militaristic was arguably the most powerful in the original Civ, but because MGL's can't rush wonders now I think that is no longer true.

Industrious - Workers aren't as fast as before - can anyone provide the exact percentages? The other part, extra shields in city center, is unchanged. Industrious and Religous were arguably the second most powerful after Militaristic originally, but both have been weakened it seems.

Religous - Government switch is still faster than non-Religous, but it's not 1 turn anymore. Can anyone provide the exact ranges? Half-priced temples/cathedrals is unchanged.

Expansionist - Unchanged. Start with a scout, can build more scouts, better stuff from goody huts.

Commercial - Unchanged. Extra commerce in city center, less corruption.

Scientific - Extra tech at start of era is unchanged, half priced science buildings is unchanged. Increased chance at SGL's is new (obviously SGL's are new too!) - does anyone have the exact percentages? As far as I know that's it, but I've seen mentioned a few times that research is faster overall for Scientific. But I don't think that's true - can anyone confirm?

Agricultural (New) - Extra food in city center, can get more food from deserts. I'm a little fuzzy on this one since I haven't played it yet, so I'm looking for the details on this one.

Seafaring (New) - Extra commerce in city center of coastal cities, extra movement point for all ships, less chance of being lost at sea (exact percentages?).

Thanks in advance to whoever can help out with my need for knowing every little detail!

	20-05-2004 02:28									#2
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The Ind worker bouns went from 100% to 75%, I believe.

The Sci change of SGLs is 5% (3% for the rest).

I think Rel was patched back to one turn Anarchy.

Sea halves the risks of sinking, IIRC.

	20-05-2004 02:33									#3
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quote: Industrious - Workers aren't as fast as before - can anyone provide the exact percentages? The other part, extra shields in city center, is unchanged. Industrious and Religous were arguably the second most powerful after Militaristic originally, but both have been weakened it seems.

Industrious workers are now only 50% faster, they were 100% in vanilla and PTW

quote: Religous - Government switch is still faster than non-Religous, but it's not 1 turn anymore. Can anyone provide the exact ranges? Half-priced temples/cathedrals is unchanged.

The max for rel civs is 2 turn revolution.

quote: Expansionist - Unchanged. Start with a scout, can build more scouts, better stuff from goody huts.

Still good, I have to admit

quote: Commercial - Unchanged. Extra commerce in city center, less corruption.

Commercial civs now have a 25% higher OCP number. check this thread for more info. (alexman seems to have had too much time on his hands. )

quote: Scientific - Extra tech at start of era is unchanged, half priced science buildings is unchanged. Increased chance at SGL's is new (obviously SGL's are new too!) - does anyone have the exact percentages? As far as I know that's it, but I've seen mentioned a few times that research is faster overall for Scientific. But I don't think that's true - can anyone confirm?

5% chance for sci civs, 3% for everyone else. And you are right on the last point.

quote: Agricultural (New) - Extra food in city center, can get more food from deserts. I'm a little fuzzy on this one since I haven't played it yet, so I'm looking for the details on this one.

one extra food in the city tile if the city is next to fresh water in despotism, but all the cities get the bonus in the other governments. Deserts get 2 food when irrigated.

quote: Seafaring (New) - Extra commerce in city center of coastal cities, extra movement point for all ships, less chance of being lost at sea (exact percentages?).

25% chance of sinking in sea and ocean, instead of 50% for the rest

	20-05-2004 03:09									#4
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A couple of comments:

Expansionist has been weakened a bit because now you can't get rich by selling Maps to everyone in the Ancient Age.

Commercial has been strengthened because of the way the FP works now (you have to rely more on the OCN and less on the double-core of your empire). By the way, the 25% OCN bonus was there even in PTW (although it used to be 10% in unpatched Civ3).

Agricultural is the most powerful trait, by far.

As the Last Conformist says, SGL chances are 5% for scientific compared to 3% for non-scientific.

	20-05-2004 03:40									#5
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Why is agricultural considered the most powerful? I'm sure it helps a lot with early expansion if you start near a fresh water source, but that doesn't always happen and if it doesn't then you receive no help at all. What am I missing?

	20-05-2004 03:42									#6
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And Krill's right on Industrious having only a 50% bonus. Agricultural also gets half price aqueducts.

	20-05-2004 05:36									#7
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quote: Originally posted by alexman As the Last Conformist says, SGL chances are 5% for scientific compared to 3% for non-scientific.

I am yet to see a SGL

	20-05-2004 14:39									#8
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albiedamned: An early advantage will leave you stronger for the entire game.

	20-05-2004 19:53									#9
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I'm still a little confused as to why Agricultural is considered the most powerful now. Obviously an early head start is huge, and an extra food in your city center lets you pump out settlers faster. But since starting next to fresh water is far from guaranteed, Agricultural seems pretty risky. If you don't start next to fresh water, then you have a basically worthless trait until you get out of Despotism, by which time if you're not already off to a good start you're in trouble. Does Agricultural increase your chances of starting by a river or lake, kind of how Seafaring increases your chances of starting on the coast?

	20-05-2004 20:03									#10
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(Some) people restart if they don't get fresh water when they play a agri civ. The other reason is that it's easier to set up a 4-turn settler pump with the agri civs.

	20-05-2004 21:39									#11
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the +1 food in the city from agri helps significantly towards that magic 5fpt figure. In addition, the additional food from deserts does help alot in making use of those big patches of otherwise difficult terrain.

	20-05-2004 22:46									#12
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The irrigated deserts producing 2f and the 1/2 cost aqueducts are nothing to sneeze at. In my experience, those two things are most useful in areas where you don't have big 'ole river systems for the food bonus under despotism. So those things balance things out nicely, so long as you can get fresh water from somewhere.

But obviously the trait is really only superpowerful if you get a fresh water start, and have a few other fresh water city sites nearby.

-Arrian

	21-05-2004 00:49									#13
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Ok I get it now. Basically in SP most people think Agri is the best because they'll just restart if they don't see fresh water at first. I do realize that getting to the +5fpt for worker or settler pumps gives a huge edge in early game expansion. But in MP, where restarting isn't an option, I would think taking Agri is a huge risk! If you don't get fresh water, then you're screwed. Yeah the cheaper Aqueducts and desert irrigation bonus are nice, but those don't come into play during the early expansion phase. I've never played MP Civ3 myself, so I'm just speculating.

	21-05-2004 00:56									#14
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yeah your right. A wise man once said that MP and SP were different games. He's right. In an MP game I'd pick a civ with good traits that are always useful, industrial, expansionist, or militeristic, and a nice UU.

mmm, China, anyone?

Edit: My typings begining to look worse than cons

Last edited by Krill on 21-05-2004 at 01:19

	21-05-2004 01:02									#15
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Starts without the ability to found several cities near fresh water are not that common. That makes the trait very powerful on average, even though there is some luck involved.

But even without fresh water, you can beeline to Monarchy and get your population boom early enough to make a big difference compared to if you were a non-agricultural civ.

	21-05-2004 01:13									#16
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And again, if you start in an area short on fresh water city sites, the 1/2 cost aqueducts become a real help! 50 shields off for every city that needs an aqueduct is pretty big - especially given that you will want to build them in the late ancient/early medieval age, when mustering 100 shields is a big deal. This is one of the reasons I think the Dutch kick so much ass. They can found a bundle of coastal towns that can hit size7+ w/o huge shield investments.

-Arrian

	21-05-2004 01:23									#17
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If you don't have fresh water, get a ROP with a neighbor who does and then go in and irrigate. If you can't get a ROP, I've found that you can sometimes "steal" water. A friendly AI will often ignore a lone worker in its territory. Dig an irrigation trench all the way to your border. Of course, sometimes they just can't resist the tempation...

	21-05-2004 01:27									#18
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quote: Originally posted by gunkulator If you don't have fresh water, get a ROP with a neighbor who does and then go in and irrigate. If you can't get a ROP, I've found that you can sometimes "steal" water. A friendly AI will often ignore a lone worker in its territory. Dig an irrigation trench all the way to your border. Of course, sometimes they just can't resist the tempation...

That all works for getting to irrigate land which you otherwise couldn't irrigate until Electricity, but I assume that doesn't count towards whether the city gets the bonus food in the city center square.

	21-05-2004 02:12									#19
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The city food bonus is strictly based on gov't. In Despotism and Anarachy, you don't get it. In all other gov'ts, you do. Even in Despotism, you get the bonus for irrigating desert.

	21-05-2004 08:38									#20
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quote: Originally posted by albiedamned Ok I get it now. Basically in SP most people think Agri is the best because they'll just restart if they don't see fresh water at first. I do realize that getting to the +5fpt for worker or settler pumps gives a huge edge in early game expansion. But in MP, where restarting isn't an option, I would think taking Agri is a huge risk! If you don't get fresh water, then you're screwed. Yeah the cheaper Aqueducts and desert irrigation bonus are nice, but those don't come into play during the early expansion phase. I've never played MP Civ3 myself, so I'm just speculating.

In MP, the "fresh water start" rate for AGR civs is well over 90%. They're taken almost exclusively in MP above and beyond any other civ - Zulu and Egypt being the exceptions.

If you'd like to play a lil' MP Civ3, click the link in the sig.

	21-05-2004 08:40									#21
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quote: Originally posted by gunkulator The city food bonus is strictly based on gov't. In Despotism and Anarachy, you don't get it. In all other gov'ts, you do. Even in Despotism, you get the bonus for irrigating desert.

This is incorrect; a Despotic AGR civ starting on a lake or river will get the food bonus.

	21-05-2004 16:54									#22
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quote: Originally posted by Solomwi And Krill's right on Industrious having only a 50% bonus. Agricultural also gets half price aqueducts.

I think I've read they also get halfprice solar energyplants, but I have never played an agricultural civ to te modern age so I am not sure.

On another note seafaring gives halfprice habours too. And I think halfprice commercial docks as well, but I am not sure about that either.

	21-05-2004 22:12									#23
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A quick look in the ol' Editor tells us that Commercial Docks, Coastal Fortesses, and Offshore Platforms are marked as Seafaring, in addition to the Habours.

Someone mentioned Solar Plants - they're Agricultural, for Sid knows what reason.

As a curiosum, it may be mentioned that SS parts can be flagged as Sea or Agr, but not as the old traits.

	22-05-2004 22:58									#24
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quote: Originally posted by Fried-Psitalon In MP, the "fresh water start" rate for AGR civs is well over 90%.

Is this percentage higher than for non-ag tribes? IE is the increased chance of a fresh water start part of the agricultural trait?

	23-05-2004 00:29									#25
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Also, for some unknown reason, Agr civs get half priced of one of the modern era polution reducing facilities. (It's either Mass Transit or Recyling Centers, not both)

	23-05-2004 01:11									#26
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It's the Recycling Center.

	27-05-2004 14:35									#27
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Also remember that under ptw/vanilla, slaves taken by industrious civs would work at 100%. In c3c, slaves work at 50%, industrious or not.

	27-05-2004 17:02									#28
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Yeah I've noticed that in my current game as the Mayans. Their combination of a slaver UU and industrious workers is overkill if you get into an ancient war. I fought almost the entire ancient era, and I captured 30 or so slaves. I have them working in teams of 3, which are equivalent to one of my regular (industrious) workers. Because I have so many, I have almost no need for my regular workers, thus negating my industrious trait.