23-05-2004 00:26									#241
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You will continue to see what you want. But answer this question.

Isn't peace a better goal... or do you think that sucide bombing is the only answer.

And obviously... while you may claim it's working, please provide proof that it really is. The facts are against you.
People are dying... and it's only getting worse. If this is success in you eyes... They are no closer to peace... no closer to having their own homeland... and nobody seems to be coming to their aid, not even their own Arab brothers... success... hardly. Some would call it defeat.

	23-05-2004 00:29									#242
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Of course peace is the better goal.

Peace will only come about by international and domestic pressure forcing Israel to back down.

quote: Of course they are combatants, they became combatants as soon as they fired that rifle or carried that bomb.

No they don't. Buy a dictionary.

-Jam

	23-05-2004 00:30									#243
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I'm sure that a lot of palestinians want Isreal to be destroyed. I'm also sure that the number of Palestinians and Arabs who want Isreal destroy will increase at an uncontrollable rate as long as Isreal continues to subjugate the Palestinians and their lands.
The brilliant concept of winning the hearts and minds of the opposition can only work when you give the enemy a reason not to hate you vice giving them a reason to hate you.
I would love for the Palestinians to stop suicide bombings and killing Isreali children. I mourn for the Isreali dead.
I abhor the things that the Jewish people have suffered. I wish them peace with their fellow neighbors. I agree that they have every right to defend themselves and take steps to ensure their continued existence.
When the state of Isreal returned the Sinai pennisula back to the Egyptians I saw this as a sign that Isreal truly wanted peace. When they kept the Golan Heights I understood that they did not want to give Syria a strong position of attack. However on the issue of Palestine, the Isreali's are wrong. They seem to have no intention of giving the land back. They make incredible demands. They ask the PLO to renounce their only means of fighting back. They do renounce their means of fighting. They actually attempt to divide the Palestinian people.
The method I would use is to give the Palestinians their land back with the provision that they not allow any Arab foreign troops inside. Provide economic and rebuilding assistance on the basis that this assistance will be withdrawn based on "terrorist" activity. If I was Isreal I would call for U.N. troops to police the Gaza strip and West bank until the Palestinians had gained stability. That way any military actions carried out could not be blaimed on Isreal. Jerusalem is the most touchy point of the argument. I would make Jerusalem a city neutral of Isreal or Arabs. Governed equally by both security provided by the U.N.
Most people say the U.N. would be impotent. That the U.N. is good for nothing. I say make the U.N. work if that's the case. If it will ease the Isreali security concerns to have a military presence in Palestinian territory let it be the U.N. and not the Isreali's.
Of course, this plan sounds stupid or crazy but the present plan obviously does not work. So any plan is probably better. I would like to hear someone else come up with a plan instead of the status quo.

	23-05-2004 00:32									#244
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quote: Originally posted by Jamski And the killing goes on right as we type. This is what Dino, Monk, Ming et al, are supporting. The independant Palastinian organisation strikes back by targeting soldiers. The Israelis kill children. -Jam

Please point out where I have supported these actions.
I have continued to say that BOTH sides are at fault.

And I won't bother posting the hundreds of news stories about innocent people dying from suicide bombers... actions that you ARE suppporting.

You are the one supporting killing children... I have never done so.

	23-05-2004 00:32									#245
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quote: Originally posted by Ming You will continue to see what you want. But answer this question. Isn't peace a better goal... or do you think that sucide bombing is the only answer. And obviously... while you may claim it's working, please provide proof that it really is. The facts are against you. People are dying... and it's only getting worse. If this is success in you eyes... They are no closer to peace... no closer to having their own homeland... and nobody seems to be coming to their aid, not even their own Arab brothers... success... hardly. Some would call it defeat.

according to Zevico or Syro the Isrealis are losing.

	23-05-2004 00:34									#246
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quote: Originally posted by The Mad Monk Actually, they're citizens of Jordan, if anything.

Actually, the Israelis are citizens of America, if anything.

	23-05-2004 00:36									#247
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quote: Originally posted by Pax Africanus according to Zevico or Syro the Isrealis are losing.

And what exactly has world opinion gotten the Pals yet.

Do they have a homeland...
Are living conditions getting better...
have people stopped dying...
Are they any closer to having this all end...

While the Isrealis may be losing the battle of world opinon... the Pals conditions only continue to get worse... Who are the real lossers here...

	23-05-2004 00:37									#248
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quote: Originally posted by Ming and nobody seems to be coming to their aid, not even their own Arab brothers... success... hardly. Some would call it defeat.

Why would the other Arabs want to help them as long as there is a ready supply of willing palastinians ready to blow themselves up. From the Arab standpoint, its a win win proposition. Isreal is attacked and they don't have to actually put themselves on the line.

	23-05-2004 00:38									#249
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quote: Originally posted by Jamski Of course peace is the better goal. Peace will only come about by international and domestic pressure forcing Israel to back down. No they don't. Buy a dictionary. -Jam

quote: Illegal combatant (also unlawful combatant) is a term that has been introduced in some countries to refer to a person who carries arms or engages in warlike acts (known as a Enemy combatant) in alleged violation of the laws of war. Such a person is not necessarily considered a lawful combatant and therefore is not necessarily accorded the rights of a prisoner of war (POW). The term was first introduced in 1942 by a United States Supreme Court decision in the case ex parte Quirin. In this case, the Supreme Court upheld the jurisdiction of a U.S. military tribunal over the trial of several German saboteurs in the US. This decision states (emphasis added and footnotes removed): "...the law of war draws a distinction between the armed forces and the peaceful populations of belligerent nations and also between those who are lawful and unlawful combatants. Lawful combatants are subject to capture and detention as prisoners of war by opposing military forces. Unlawful combatants are likewise subject to capture and detention, but in addition they are subject to trial and punishment by military tribunals for acts which render their belligerency unlawful. The spy who secretly and without uniform passes the military lines of a belligerent in time of war, seeking to gather military information and communicate it to the enemy, or an enemy combatant who without uniform comes secretly through the lines for the purpose of waging war by destruction of life or property, are familiar examples of belligerents who are generally deemed not to be entitled to the status of prisoners of war, but to be offenders against the law of war subject to trial and punishment by military tribunals."

http://www.free-definition.com/Illegal-combatant.html

	23-05-2004 00:47									#250
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Thanks for proving my point for me Monk

Since there is no war, there are no unlawful combatants.

-Jam

	23-05-2004 00:57									#251
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So Jamski... it seems like your whole point can be summed up with:

Pals can kill, and they should... and it's good.
Israel can't kill, and they shouldn't, and it's bad.

A pretty fair perspective you have

How about both sides are wrong and need to talk peace... or is that too logical

	23-05-2004 00:58									#252
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quote: or an enemy combatant who without uniform comes secretly through the lines for the purpose of waging war by destruction of life or property

What are they coming through for? The knishes, perhaps?

	23-05-2004 01:03									#253
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quote: So Jamski... it seems like your whole point can be summed up with: Pals can kill, and they should... and it's good. Israel can't kill, and they shouldn't, and it's bad.

No.

More like :

Pals can kill, not effectivly - but they try, and its bad.
Israelis can kill, ver effectively, and its very bad.

But my actual point is - Israel is illegally occupying another coutry and should get the hell out. If they get suicide bombed after sending in tanks and 'copters - then what did they expect? Everyone should be allowed to defend themself.

-Jam

	23-05-2004 01:05									#254
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quote: How about both sides are wrong and need to talk peace... or is that too logical

If I'm in your house with a gun, and I tell you what to do. Maybe I shoot your kid, and say that your house should belong to me, and you try to punch me, does that mean we are equally in the wrong?

-Jam

	23-05-2004 01:14									#255
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quote: Originally posted by Jamski Everyone should be allowed to defend themself.

Gee... your point seem to be that Pals can defend themselves, but the Israelis can't... not everyone as you so claim.

And you analogy is funny at best.

You are advocating violence... which hasn't worked.
I'm advocating peace and talks... Again, I'll let rational people decide which is right.

	23-05-2004 01:16									#256
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You know what, Jamski? If what is going over there does not meet your definition of war, I just don't accept your definition of war. Neither do the Israelis or Palestinians, both of whom regard it very much as a war.

I am now very tired, and I am going to bed. Goodnight.

	23-05-2004 01:35									#257
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quote: Gee... your point seem to be that Pals can defend themselves, but the Israelis can't... not everyone as you so claim.

Of course the Israelis can defend themselves. But you don't "defend" yourself by invading another country and holding its people prisoner, while regulary shelling, shooting, starving and bombing them.

And as I KEEP saying - of course peace is to be preferred. The Israelis need to stop defending themselves so aggressively.

To go back to my simple analogy. Would you consider it "defending yourself" to kill everyone that might pose a threat to you?

-Jam

	23-05-2004 01:38									#258
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quote: Originally posted by Jamski Kamakazis were serving soldiers in the Japanese Air Force != Civillians Palestinian Suicide Bombers are bakers and farmers etc == Civillians

nice , but wrong.

Palestinian suicide bombers are active members in palestinian militant resistance groups. != civilians.

Heck, some palestinian suicide bombers and terrorists are active members in palestinain security forces. != civilians.

Just because they do not (as morally required) wear uniforms and avoid hiding in civilian population - does not make them civilians.

Furthermore, most active terrorist members dedicate most of their time to it. Being a member of an underground guerilla organziation, especially being on the run from Israel, does take its toll on your free time.

quote: In hours? Probably 2-300. The benefits of unemployment is lots of free time to read stuff that interests you. -Jam

good then.

Lets assume I have been reading up on the issue from books, newspapers, internet sites, and other documents, 1 hour per day.

That would be 300 days. Let's assume I don't read on saturdays - that means that I have read the same amount in the last year alone.

	23-05-2004 01:52									#259
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quote: Originally posted by Jamski Yes. In a binary system, where an organisation is millitary or not, they are not millitary.

Again, nice but false.

This is not a binary system.

The Hamas, Jihad and what ever are paramilitary-systems.

While the palestinian terrorists in thier military structures are military / "policing" systems.

Just because they refuse to wear unfiroms, dose not make them civilian.

A civilian is a non-militant, which has nothing physically to do with conflict.

quote: Or if you want them to be classified as millitary, you have to treat this as a proper war in Israel, treat Palestine as a real country and stop calling the Palestinians terrorists. Your call -Jam

Again false analogies.

There is no relations between the definition of militant powers (ie militias / militaries) and their relation to statehood.

Most militaries existed before statehood, and belonged to private people / groups.


Furthermore, the Palestinian terrorists are infact para-militaries / guerilla fighters.

They are labeled terrorists as description of their strategy : using guerilla tactics against civilian targets in order to create a hype of fear and press the political leadership to wanted steps.


Whether they are an organized military or an improvised para-military, doesn't mean jack sh*t - they are still terrorists, as it describes their strategy.

	23-05-2004 01:55									#260
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quote: Originally posted by Jamski Of course the Israelis can defend themselves. But you don't "defend" yourself by invading another country and holding its people prisoner, while regulary shelling, shooting, starving and bombing them.

And you don't talk peace:
by having has your goal the elimination of Israel...
targeting innocent people with suicide bombers...

As I've said before, whether it was the right thing or not to create the state of Israel... it does exist.

The Arabs have on multiple occasions attacked and have been the aggressors... they used adjoining land to continue attacks into the country... and gee, Israel removed that option in the process of defending themselves... no real surprise. So some could call it an act of self defense, and others will call it an act of agression.

My point is that I don't really care anymore how you want to put your spin on it... what I care about is that it stops. And if the killing continues on both sides, it won't. Suicide bombing isn't working... Over agressive responses by Israel isn't working... They are BOTH WRONG. There is no right anymore. They need to agree to a cease fire and actually mean it. They need to sit down and hammer out a fair deal that both can live with. The majority of the people there want just that.

	23-05-2004 01:57									#261
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quote: Of course the Israelis can defend themselves. But you don't "defend" yourself by invading another country and holding its people prisoner, while regulary shelling, shooting, starving and bombing them.

IDF has a defensive doctorine which demands attacks on the operational level and moving the battlefield to the enemy's land.

You can read it on the IDF website.

Defending is more than *raising shield over head*. It is also *hitting back with the force necessary to make your opponent stop attacking*.

quote: And as I KEEP saying - of course peace is to be preferred. The Israelis need to stop defending themselves so aggressively.

we've tried petting and kisses on Hamas members. It didn't work.

we've also tried no-reacting and let the PA to act against Hamas members. It didn't work either.

In 2001, we've decided we had enough.

quote: To go back to my simple analogy. Would you consider it "defending yourself" to kill everyone that might pose a threat to you?

Again why do you use the word "might"?

Do Hamas members "might" pose a threat?

No they already do. That's why they will be killed.

	23-05-2004 02:00									#262
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quote: Over agressive responses by Israel isn't working

sure it does.

there's a reason why suicide bombings in Israel have become such a rarity.

Hamas and PIJ leadership in the territories is now very weak, and has troubles.

Gaza has been a different story until recently.

	23-05-2004 02:22									#263
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But Sirnotnikov... while the suicide bombings may indeed be down, you are no closer to a lasting peace... which is what people want. So no, it isn't working.

	23-05-2004 03:15									#264
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Two sites that offer differing viewpoints. www.larouchepub.com/other/2002/2915oslo_mrdrd.html and www.yahoodi.com/peace/oslo.html.
It sounds as if all parties have agreed to Isreal's right to exist. So that really should be a non issue. The problem is whether or not the Palestinian's have a right to a state. The agreement in the Oslo peace accord's seem pretty fair to me. I believe that the U.N. should be used to enforce the treaty instead of Isreal soldiers. I think that Palestinians should have a neutral party guarantee their security. Until they learn to get along the Isreali's need to stay out. The Palestinians argued that the Isreali's wanted them to fight each other. That would have led to a further dividing of the Palestinian people. Maybe the Isreali's should increase the security inside Isreal proper and let the U.N. be responsible for security in Palestinian areas. The U.S. should avoid troop involvement like the plague. It would probably be best to use soldiers that have no prior links to the M.E. situation. No coalition forces. No arab forces, but some muslim forces.

	23-05-2004 03:15									#265
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quote: Originally posted by Jamski All Israeli attacks are against civillians. Either you have the Palastinian freedom fighters as terrorists, or as soldiers. You can't have it both ways. There IS no such thing as a Palastinian millitary. -Jam

You are proving your ignorance over and over Jamsk.

First, terrorists are militants / combatants and are therefore non-civilians.

Civilians by definition are people that have nothing to do with fighting.

And there is such thing as a Palestinian military - the national security brigades which consist of over 40,000 people, all on the paycheck of the PA, and have had their weapons supplied by Israel in 1994.

I guess your ~200 hours of reading didn't give you that, did they?

	23-05-2004 03:18									#266
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quote: Israel is illegally occupying another coutry and should get the hell out.

Please provide proof of a country existing there, and I'll get out.

In the meantime, we are occupatying a people with wishes for self-proclamnation and self-governance, and a dispute with Israel about its borders.

quote: If they get suicide bombed after sending in tanks and 'copters - then what did they expect? Everyone should be allowed to defend themself.

Yes. You're right.

I think that everyone should be allowed to defend themselves against innocent civilians riding the bus, or innocent civilians in discotheques. You know how dangerous those are!

	23-05-2004 03:24									#267
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quote: NO! There exists no formal state of war between Israel and Palestine. Therefore they are not, legally speaking, combatants. They are regarded in international law as citizens and/or residents of the state of Israel. As civillians. Legally your point is completely untrue. Sorry about that old boy.

again nonsense.

you are abusing your dictionary.

War is armed conflict between two groups with different agendas.

Since the palestinian terrorists are a group with a different agenda and are initiating armed conflict they are infact combatants / warriors.

You seem to live in a fictionary binary world, where only countries have militaries and only they wage wars.

Describe then please the Kurdish rebel movement in Iraq? Are they civilians?

Was the northern alliance in Afghanistan civilians?

quote: They are expected to be treated as any democratic government is expected to treat dissidents. That may, depending on the country, involve non-lethal use of force, tear gas etc. Use of millitary force to stop a riot? Big no no. And in legal terms this is just an ongoing overdone riot.

LOL

Remind me the last time "dissidents" that used explosives against innocent civilians were treated with 'non-lethal' force.

	23-05-2004 03:28									#268
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quote: But Sirnotnikov... while the suicide bombings may indeed be down, you are no closer to a lasting peace... which is what people want. So no, it isn't working.

We are closer to lasting peace than we were after the Park hotel bombing in 2002.

As long as there is terrorism, the Israeli public is very far from peace, and eventually, any peace accord (I'm not even going to address the imaginary option of true lasting peace) will be accepted or rejected by them, as a party.

Furthermore, after operation Defensive Shield in 2002 in the west bank, the palestinian population and politicians there moved a step closer to peace - realising more and more that it is futile to continue terrorising Israel.

True, the hardcore of terrorists remains, but Israeli incursions infact made most palestinians think over their stance and lean back towards non-violent protest.

I know that as a fact.

	23-05-2004 03:32									#269
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quote: I believe that the U.N. should be used to enforce the treaty instead of Isreal soldiers.

Yes, like they are safely securing the Israeli Lebanese borders and preventing terrorist attacks.

Oh wait...

- 3 Israeli soldiers were kidnapped.
- Israeli homes were shelled by rockets
- Israeli soldiers on border posts were attacked
- Lebanese terrorists linked to Hizbullah penetrated Israel and murdered innocent civilians.

Right.

That UN?

You mean the UN which folded its tail between its legs and ran away from Iraq?

That god d*mn f*cking b*tch?

	23-05-2004 03:37									#270
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quote: If I'm in your house with a gun, and I tell you what to do. Maybe I shoot your kid, and say that your house should belong to me, and you try to punch me, does that mean we are equally in the wrong? -Jam

lets have a more correct story:

An Israeli enters a neighbourhood with arabs and builds a house. He is threatened to leave and then attacked. He wins. His neighbours, meanwhile building their own house in the same yard run away in fear of retribution. The Israeli takes their house and makes it a garage.

Then the Palestinian begin harassing the Israeli and attacking him. To which he attacks them back. So the Palestinians kill his children. The Israeli attacks him back, and misses and kills one of the Pal's children. While he tries to say "I'm sorry" the Palestinian shoots the Israeli elderly parents and escapes.


Yeah.
This story is closer to reality.