22-05-2004 09:05									#181
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What happened to them was terrible, and at the time Steinbeck wrote the novel they were still in those godawful conditions -- which is, of course, why he wrote it.

What I am asking you is, where are they now?

	22-05-2004 09:07									#182
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quote: But what does that have to do with Palestine? Unless you subscribe to some weird Hegelian account of history, it's not the case that mindless economic forces or natural disaster forced the Palestinians into refugee camps, the Israelis did and are the one's keeping them there (or bulldozing them out).

Mindless economic forces did not force the Okies into camps either -- Californians did.

	22-05-2004 09:11									#183
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What eventually happened is that they moved on, found new lives, and flourished...elsewhere. The best thing the Palestinians could do for their children is exactly that.

	22-05-2004 09:12									#184
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The question you people should be asking Agathon and the people who believe as he does is if he truely believes that a just cause justifies killing as many civilians as possible. Because if he answers yes, I don't see how any of you can have a debate with him because you'd have 0 common ground at all from which to discuss.

	22-05-2004 12:17									#185
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It makes no sense for the Isreali's to say they are not going to give the land back because of the Palestinian tactics. Which came first. The Suicide bombing or the occupation. The Suicide bombing is a response to the occupation.
The question should be asked is who here does not believe the Palestinians have the right to defend themselves in the few methods available to them. If you protest their methods then you should equip and train them to be able to fight the Isreali's on a level playing field.

	22-05-2004 12:26									#186
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quote: What eventually happened is that they moved on, found new lives, and flourished...elsewhere. The best thing the Palestinians could do for their children is exactly that.

So did the Jews who fled from the Nazis and from other pogroms. And that, in your mind. magically makes it right? Come on, you've said some stuff I disagree with, but this is morally repugnant.

There was nothing inevitable about what happened to the Okies. They were victims of the weather and of a poorly organized society - the latter is not immortal or immutable. What would you say now if while you were being forced from your home I told you that it would be OK 15 years down the track? You'd probably hit me.


Oh and @ Skywalker. That tripe isn't worth a response. In fact it's typical of your posts lately which seem to have sunk to the level of irrelevant hair splitting or straw men. Surely you can do better...

	22-05-2004 13:29									#187
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But this this isn't fifteen years down the track, it's fifty.

It's time to move on.

	22-05-2004 13:48									#188
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quote: Originally posted by The Mad Monk But this this isn't fifteen years down the track, it's fifty.

Should have said it to the Zionists, "Com'on, it's a couple of thousands of years. Time to move on."

	22-05-2004 15:52									#189
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Back then, I probably would have.

	22-05-2004 16:49									#190
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quote: It makes no sense for the Isreali's to say they are not going to give the land back because of the Palestinian tactics. Which came first. The Suicide bombing or the occupation. The Suicide bombing is a response to the occupation.

Suicide bombing in this case is irrelevant. Terrorism is what you should be speaking of-and that existed before the Six Day War (to say nothing of the inception of the state itself). Your point is therefore null and void.
Let me try and get this through your head. Suicide bombers and their supporters don't want to end the occupation of post 67 captured lands, they want to destroy Israel. They won't stop killing Israelis if Israel pulls out, just as they killed as Israelis before 1967.
edit: bah.

	22-05-2004 16:59									#191
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quote: Should have said it to the Zionists, "Com'on, it's a couple of thousands of years. Time to move on."

Learn some history, please. If Jews weren't killed just about everywhere they went, they would have assimilated ages ago.

	22-05-2004 17:17									#192
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quote: Originally posted by Nuclear Master If the United States starts to back the Arabs or stops backing the Israelis, I suspect a war coming soon

I think for the people in the region they might say that there is a war already going on

The middle east was always going to be a flash pan for global instability, sadly we are the ones who threw the first stones

	22-05-2004 17:21									#193
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Bloody good story Aggie

I haven't seen ANY of these fascist dicks come up with any good arguments except to pick at a few corners.

Guess even a conservative can realise they're wrong sometimes.

Monk, Dino, Skywalker, Ming. You have been OWNED



-Jam

	22-05-2004 18:02									#194
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Based on what? I don't really see the need to seriously debate someone (this includes you) who places such importance on the concept of jus ad bellum while completely ignoring jus in bello because I have no possible common ground with them from which to debate.

	22-05-2004 18:31									#195
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quote: Originally posted by Jamski Bloody good story Aggie I haven't seen ANY of these fascist dicks come up with any good arguments except to pick at a few corners. Guess even a conservative can realise they're wrong sometimes. Monk, Dino, Skywalker, Ming. You have been OWNED -Jam

I did more than pick at it -- I gave an actual situation where Americans were thrown off land that had been in their families for generations, and eventually resolved the situation not by commiting mass murder, but by going elsewhere and building new lives.

...but go ahead, declare victory as you retreat.

	22-05-2004 18:41									#196
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quote: Originally posted by Jamski Guess even a conservative can realise they're wrong sometimes.

Does that mean if a conservative makes up a "story" that is irrelevant to the discussion, and none of the liberals decide to waste their time mentioning it because it doesn't apply to the discussion, that proves the liberals are wrong

Whether the creation of the state of Isreal should have happened or not, it did. And nothing is going to change that. Since the beginning, the Arab world has avowed the distruction of that state, and on multiple occasions have attempted to do just that. And lost. In the process of THEIR agression, people have been displaced and land has changed hands... The Arabs paid the price for their attempts to destroy Isreal. I don't see any "high moral ground" in their attacks.

It is not possible for things to go back to the way they were... and anybody that thinks that is the case is smoking something.

The reality is that just about every peace discussion has ended with terrorists targeting civilian targets to disrupt the process... And there is still the stated goal of destroying Isreal.

Both sides are going to have to give up something for true peace... and for those that think that only Isreal should give up something don't understand reality.

This... we aren't getting back everything we want so it's time to start bombing civilians again attitude is just wrong, and is surely not the morally high ground.

Peace discussions are a matter of give and take... not, you get nothing and I get everything. Negotiations are a two way street... and both sides need to agree on a total cease fire and SERIOUSLY attempt to come to some kind of agreement.

	22-05-2004 21:12									#197
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quote: I don't really see the need to seriously debate someone (this includes you) who places such importance on the concept of jus ad bellum while completely ignoring jus in bello because I have no possible common ground with them from which to debate.

I don't really see the need to take seriously the ideas of one who pretends to know more about the subject by using latin terms.

Sorry to be rude earlier but the "american conservative stance" that the Palastinians are terrorists is simply wrong. This refusual of yours and others to recognise this fact will never help to bring peace to Palestine.

Aggie's story described the situation almost perfectly. People driven from their own homes and forced into concentration camps are victims, whether or not some of them are suicide bombers. Perhaps if the Palastinians had tanks and planes and helecopters and artillery, then they wouldn't need to resort to such desperate methods.

Probably the USA should send them some equipment for the sake of a fair fight.

-Jam

	22-05-2004 21:30									#198
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quote: Originally posted by Jamski Perhaps if the Palastinians had tanks and planes and helecopters and artillery, then they wouldn't need to resort to such desperate methods.

The rest of the Arab world does... but smartly refuse to help because they all remember what has happened in the past when they have tried to destroy Isreal.

People who target civilians are terrorists... it's that simple. And it simply amazes me that some people can't see that, and actually supports their cowardly attacks against women and children... real high moral ground

Again... if they truely wanted peace, they would stop their attacks, and then so would Isreal, and they could sit down and maybe get something accomplished. But no, they are more interested in destroying Isreal than getting peace. Again... when peace has ever been close, the radicals go out and disrupt the talks with cowardly attacks against men and children. And yeah, Isreal attacks back... and usually too strongly... and I think both sides are in the wrong...

A real cease fire is needed, and the Pals are the ones that always break them with more terrorist attacks against innocent civilians.

	22-05-2004 21:39									#199
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quote: People who target civilians are terrorists... it's that simple. And it simply amazes me that some people can't see that, and actually supports their cowardly attacks against women and children... real high moral ground

I agree. Israel is a terrorist state.

They target civillians daily.

At least some of the Palastinian attacks are against millitary targets.

quote: A real cease fire is needed, and the Pals are the ones that always break them with more terrorist attacks against innocent civilians.

There will be no ceasefire untill the Israelis pull out. The Palastinians simply will never give up while there are tanks in their backyards and they are treated like subhuman crap, asked for identification at gunpoint, herded behind walls and driven into ever smaller enclaves.

A 2-state solution with the Palastinians retaining the land they are currently reduced to is unworkable. The tiny plots of land in Gaza and the West Bank are nowhere near enough to support the large population, especially one lacking an industrial base. The Palastinians will sit there in poverty untill another generation arises to take their lands back.

A peaceful soultion has been sought for 50 years, and is probably more distant now than at any point in that time. Its a pipedream.

Basically "sitting on the fence" is not an option. Either you must be in favor of the victory of one side or the other, or you are in support of the continued violence and human rights violations.

-Jam

	22-05-2004 21:39									#200
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quote: Originally posted by Pax Africanus It makes no sense for the Isreali's to say they are not going to give the land back because of the Palestinian tactics. Which came first. The Suicide bombing or the occupation. The Suicide bombing is a response to the occupation.

If you call me a poopie-head, and then I break your legs and arms, is that OK because it's a "response"?

quote: The question should be asked is who here does not believe the Palestinians have the right to defend themselves in the few methods available to them. If you protest their methods then you should equip and train them to be able to fight the Isreali's on a level playing field.

That's retarded. War isn't a game.

	22-05-2004 21:40									#201
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon Oh and @ Skywalker. That tripe isn't worth a response. In fact it's typical of your posts lately which seem to have sunk to the level of irrelevant hair splitting or straw men. Surely you can do better...

The last resort of the losing?

	22-05-2004 21:41									#202
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Why don't your answers ever relate to the text you quote, Skywalker?

-Jam

	22-05-2004 21:44									#203
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quote: Originally posted by Jamski Sorry to be rude earlier but the "american conservative stance" that the Palastinians are terrorists is simply wrong. This refusual of yours and others to recognise this fact will never help to bring peace to Palestine.

So blowing yourself up in the middle of a crowded restaraunt in order to kill civilians isn't terrorism?

quote: Probably the USA should send them some equipment for the sake of a fair fight.

War isn't a game. Why the hell are you talking about "fair"?

	22-05-2004 21:45									#204
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quote: Originally posted by Jamski Why don't your answers ever relate to the text you quote, Skywalker? -Jam

Examples, please.

Why don't your posts ever contain anything but "oh Aggie, I want to have your child, your so brilliant and your winning this debate I guess everyone else is just being OWNED"?

	22-05-2004 22:10									#205
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FIRST... any more personal insults and you go find some other site to post your crap.

quote: Originally posted by Jamski They target civillians daily. At least some of the Palastinian attacks are against millitary targets.

The percentage of Palastinian attacks against purely civilian targets is far higher than the Israelis... so you are incorrect in your perception.

quote: There will be no ceasefire untill the Israelis pull out. The Palastinians simply will never give up while there are tanks in their backyards and they are treated like subhuman crap, asked for identification at gunpoint, herded behind walls and driven into ever smaller enclaves.

If they stopped their terrorists attacts, the Israelis would pull out. And they are being treated like crap because the constantly target innocent civilians...

quote: A 2-state solution with the Palastinians retaining the land they are currently reduced to is unworkable. The tiny plots of land in Gaza and the West Bank are nowhere near enough to support the large population, especially one lacking an industrial base. The Palastinians will sit there in poverty untill another generation arises to take their lands back.

So, all you are saying is that the Pals see no solution except the death of Israel... and how is this supposed to lead to peace? I have said both sides to give up something... not just one side. You seem to think that only the Israelis have to give up something. Not very realistic.

quote: A peaceful soultion has been sought for 50 years, and is probably more distant now than at any point in that time. Its a pipedream.

Yep... because everytime their is a chance at peace, the extreme terrorist do everything possible to ensure retailation by the Israelis by starting attacks against innocent people again. You could almost say that the terrrorists are to blame for their own peoples deaths... because they wouldn't happen if they would stick to a cease fire. Again... no high moral ground here for the terrorists... just cowardly acts.

quote: Basically "sitting on the fence" is not an option. Either you must be in favor of the victory of one side or the other, or you are in support of the continued violence and human rights violations.

Again... the only true victory that can happen is that Isreal gets sick and tired of the Pals not wanting peace and do what you claim they are already doing and just solve the problem with more force and really start targeting everybody. They have not done so. If they really wanted to, they could end the war with a clear victory... and the Pals can't stop them.

I am not in support of continued violence or human rights violations... or cowardly terrorist attacks against women and children. Only you seem to be supporting the cowardly attacks.

I think both sides are in the wrong, and that a cease fire must happen right now, and that both sides come to terms. A rational desire. I don't wish to see either side go for total victory, because more people would be killed. But again, you seem to want that.

The high moral ground is PEACE... not cowardly attacks by Pal terrorists, OR retaliation strikes that also kill civilians.

	22-05-2004 22:12									#206
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quote: A 2-state solution with the Palastinians retaining the land they are currently reduced to is unworkable. The tiny plots of land in Gaza and the West Bank are nowhere near enough to support the large population, especially one lacking an industrial base. The Palastinians will sit there in poverty untill another generation arises to take their lands back

You don't acquire an industrial base, you build one. The tiny plots of land are nothing compard to the vast territories available in Jordan -- and if anyone has claim to "Palestine", it's Jordan. Let them deal with Israel.

Oh wait -- they already did, in '67.

	22-05-2004 22:15									#207
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...and the Palestinians will sit there in poverty until they either emigrate, or die. Because the Israelis will fight every bit as hard for their homes, are better armed, are better trained, and they will do what they have to do to survive, regardless of world opinion, if they are pushed hard enough.

	22-05-2004 22:19									#208
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I'm sure we condemn that sort of behaviour when done by people othern than the Israelis.

	22-05-2004 22:25									#209
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I am not discussing the morality of the situation, I'm describing the reality of the situation.

That reality is that the Palestinians are charging headlong into a meatgrinder, and that certain parties here are cheering them on.

	22-05-2004 22:29									#210
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Better to cheer them on than to keep powering the meatgrinder. (Of course, better to find a solution that does not cost the blood of thousands)