22-05-2004 06:17									#1
	1792 - 1814 AD New City and Caravel Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

1792 - Change Utica Fish Worker to Forest to get Temple built before 2nd Citizen.

1794 - Finish Apolytonia Phalanx, start Caravel. Set city to non-Xin. Move AS Sparrowhawk along coast, find 2nd Fish. Disembark Settler to use both Fish. Start AS Sparrowhawk back toward Apolytonia.

1796 - Center square of extra specials would be on Forest, decide to establish 'Malaca' on coast, start Temple. Set Worker of Forest to get Temple built faster. Set Apolytonia to Xin.

1798 - 800,000 Citizens. Set Apolytonia to non-Xin. AS Sparrowhawk heading towards Apolytonia.

1800 - Set Apolytonia to Xin. AS Sparrowhawk closing in on Apolytonia.

1802 - Set Apolytonia to non-Xin. AS Sparrowhawk arrives in Apolytonia, is repaired from strains of first voyage. Relieved drunken sailors carouse all night and anger Citizenry; police kindly place sailors in courtyard for sobering-up. I don't get any sleep, but forebear complaining as they earned their night of revelry.

1804 - AS Sparrowhawk debarks for Killdeer with Caravans of Beads and Gems. Point out to shipmaster that ship could have also carried Salt Caravan, but he says he has plans for the Salt. I say nothing as I see his plan. Apolytonia set to Xin.

1806 - Set Apolytonia to non-Xin. AS Sparrowhawk proceeds toward Killdeer. Traveller advises that Zulus have started working on a "Cure for Cancer". I contemplate what that might be as I fill my pipe.

1808 - Apolytonia builds 2nd Caravel, starts Settler. The shipmaster is a cautious political veteran and asks if I want it named after me; I decline (if it sinks, it would reflect badly on my Greatness). I name it the AS Friday (because it is Friday, Duh!). The AS Friday sails toward Malaca with a Settler and a Salt Caravan on board. Rush Utica Temple for 30G to prevent impending unhappiness when population increases. Move Utica Worker to Fish to keep him productive. Set Aploytonia to Xin.

1810 - Utica becomes size 2 and completes Temple which delights the Citizenry; starts Marketplace. Our Scientists discover Banking and start on Econimics (they used some word like that). They say it is a dismal science, but it will also increase our gold supply. I'm all in favor of that, but I don't understand the weird formulas they begin explaining. Set Apolytonia to non-Xin. Land Bead Caravan from AS Sparrowhawk near Killdeer and they meet Egyptian Emmisary. We establish Peace Pact. We ask to exchange knowledge, but they do not wish to.

1812 - Killdeer goes into rebellion. Decide this is not the best time to enter city with Caravan and will wait for things to settle down. Set Apolytonia to Xin.

1814 - Set Apolytonia to maximum trade and send Bead Caravan into newly-calmed Killdeer. We get 188 gold for our Beads, WOW! AS Sparrowhawk ventures further along coast seeking city that wants Gems. If Beads are worth so much to these Egytians, Gems ought to allow me to retire rich! Er, I mean, they should enhance our treasury greatly for the good of all the people! (ahem) Discover Egyptian city Giza, but it doesn't want our Gems. Scientists advise me that they are about 75% complete in their study of Ecominics (whatever). As long as it gets us more gold, I don't care if they call it Razzlefrass.

	22-05-2004 06:21									#2
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I plan to rehome the Salt Caravan to Malaca and return it to Apolytonia. The Settler will seek west of Malaca for a good site for a 4th city. The AS Sparrowhawk will see if a city out East wants Gems, but will send it to any large city soon in order to return home for more goods. I expect to rush a Malaca Temple just as the city goes to size 2.

Of course, those are subject to Ministerial and Citizenry discussions.

	22-05-2004 06:22									#3
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	22-05-2004 06:24									#4
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	22-05-2004 06:25									#5
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	22-05-2004 06:26									#6
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	22-05-2004 06:27									#7
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	22-05-2004 06:28									#8
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	22-05-2004 06:29									#9
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	22-05-2004 06:30									#10
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	22-05-2004 06:31									#11
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	22-05-2004 19:15									#12
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Not a bad session.... and it is clear that even very nearby cities give us loads of GOLD.

One question right now: why do you think rehoming the Salt Caravan to a city that supplies Salt and returning it to Poly will do something? Poly does not demand Salt ATM - will it when you rehome?

	23-05-2004 01:39									#13
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* Sparrowhawk does not like the idea of rehoming caravans

	23-05-2004 08:39									#14
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I just wanted to get any trade from the new cities to the Capital established. And I will not rehome the Caravan if anyone objects. It is a questionable tactic and I understand the objection.

	23-05-2004 11:44									#15
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quote: Originally posted by cavebear I just wanted to get any trade from the new cities to the Capital established. And I will not rehome the Caravan if anyone objects. It is a questionable tactic and I understand the objection.

Object is a little strong, but rehoming caravans is not permitted in most succession and comparison games (on Apolyton), so I think we should not do it here, even if we did not specifically exclude it in the initial rules.

BTW, AFAIK, there is no gain in terms of delivery bonus or on-going trade route in delivering from A to B compared with delivering from B to A.

RJM at Sleeper's

	23-05-2004 17:26									#16
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So what is so objectionable about it? Would it be considered dodgy if we wanted to establish a trade route between a particular large AI city and one of our own larger cities, but the good was not supplied by any of our large cities, so we rehomed the right Caravan as supplied by a smaller city in order to get more cash?

Horrible run-on sentence there, but I think it's understandable.

In this case then, if we are just establishing a trade route with Apolytonia anyway, there is no difference. Mind you, that also makes the whole exercise pointless, if rjm is right...

I will make a poll on this anyway. My time is up now, but I promise to have as many polls as I can up this time tomorrow - Monday evenings are slow.

	24-05-2004 10:49									#17
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The reason that re-homing caravans is not allowed in most Apolyton games is that if you attempt to re-home using the orders menu you get a message saying re-homing of trade units is not allowed. Of course the city menu permits re-homing, but this is assumed to be a bug.

I believe the Civ Fanatics site allows it in its games. It is a matter of choice, but for me, the fact that there is a specific message saying that it is not allowed is an indication of the game designers intentions.

RJM at Sleeper's

	24-05-2004 18:24									#18
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Save downloaded: 1:22 am....

By the way, I am still puzzled by the rehoming. WHY would you do it? Would it be to have the trade route established from the largest city possible, thus maximising the returns? And why is it considered a cheat if the game allows it?

Secondly, why do you think it would be beneficial in this situation, cavebear, if you are going to establish a route between the same two cities anyway?

Once I fully understand the issues I can poll on this.

	24-05-2004 19:43									#19
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First, about rehoming in general, I thought the objection to it was in person-to-person games or when score counted. It didn't think it would be wrong in a game like this. But I should have at least asked first.

Second, since people always refer to the value of sending Caravans FROM outlying cities TO the Capital, I thought there was some difference in benefits to that direction. I never tested it personally, just thought others had.

	25-05-2004 11:29									#20
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There is a dramatic benefit (in terms of the delivery bonus) in rehoming a caravan to your SSC and then delivering to another city. Once you have a railroad network and ship chain in place you could potentially rush build a van in every city; re-home it and deliver it for a cash bonus that exceeded the cost of building - all in one turn. This would give you lots of gold and speed up research. This is the reason (IIRC) it was not allowed in early landing games.

The delivery bonus and trade value formulas (as posted in the strategy section) are symmetrical as far as the cities are concerned. They mainly depend on the sum of the trade arrows in the two cities and the distances involved. I believe a difference could arise if the two cities are on the same continent and the "direct route" from A to B is different from the B to A route and one route is completely roaded and the other isn't. But for most purposes, delivery from A to B produces the same results as delivery from B to A. (That is my interpretation of the formulae; I've not tested it.)

I think that the reason people talk about vans going to the capital is that (if the capital is the SSC) the biggest available bonus for a van in a colony is usually by trading with the SSC - particularly for a demanded good. Sending the van to the SSC can also be helpful in unblocking supply in the SSC. A van built in the SSC is likely to have a much bigger bonus from trading with a large AI city. Hence the SSC vans are not usually sent to the colony.

In our situation I can't see any benefit in building a van in the capital, re-homing it in a colony and sending it back to the capital - it just delays the bonus and clogs up the shipping lanes.

RJM at Sleeper's

Last edited by rjmatsleepers on 25-05-2004 at 11:35

	25-05-2004 12:25									#21
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I have just conducted a quick and non-rigorous test. This confirms that differences can arise between A->B and B->A if the direct routes differ. Where they are the same or equivalent, delivery bonus and on-going route value appear to be the same in either direction.

RJM at Sleeper's

	25-05-2004 14:03									#22
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Ah yes, the whole different route idea... something I don't really understand. Is there an easy to understand thread somewhere in the Strat forum that could help me with that?

	25-05-2004 22:25									#23
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The question of whether to allow rehoming of vans has been debated for years. One of the negative arguements already mentioned, that it is an unintended bug because it is not allowed from the orders menu, could just as easily go the other way. That is to say, the code allowing it from the city screen was a late addition and they forgot to change the orders menu. But that is a minority view. There are also positive arguements that deal with real life situations where a product gets repackaged and distributed from a central hub.

The winning arguement, usually, is that it is a crutch/cheat because of the bigger bonus payouts if the van is homed to a city with more trade arrows. The human player should not be able to game the system against the very lame AI. One could say that disallowing rehoming is the high road, the higher standard of integrity. But, folk can agree to do about anything.

The better question here is why do anything other than deliver this van to the AI to get the extra bonus?? Cash the van in Killdear or Giza, I say.

Monk

	26-05-2004 11:55									#24
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quote: Originally posted by MrWhereItsAt Ah yes, the whole different route idea... something I don't really understand. Is there an easy to understand thread somewhere in the Strat forum that could help me with that?

There was a post recently (ie within my lifetime) that gave a chart that enabled you to calculate the "go to" route. I think this is it http://apolyton.net/forums/showthre...4357#post374357
but if not I believe it can be reached via the second Great Library index.

RJM at Sleeper's

	27-05-2004 01:45									#25
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That chart is a work of art!!

Assuming there is no across the dateline problem, you can use the go-to function each way to reveal the 'right' path. Alternatively, you can place another city at the edge of each's radius, and road/rail all the tiles between those neighbors. This will create "Station Cities" which effectively make any road/rail connection between the neighbors work for the bonus. This bonus is for deliveries to cities 22 clicks, or less distant, and on the same land mass.

Hope this helps. There are many threads in the strat forum dealing with this.

Monk

	27-05-2004 11:08									#26
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quote: Originally posted by Bloody Monk Assuming there is no across the dateline problem, you can use the go-to function each way to reveal the 'right' path. Alternatively, you can place another city at the edge of each's radius, and road/rail all the tiles between those neighbors. This will create "Station Cities" which effectively make any road/rail connection between the neighbors work for the bonus. This bonus is for deliveries to cities 22 clicks, or less distant, and on the same land mass. Monk

But IIRC you must use the goto before building any roads. The idiot savant AI will sometimes use roads and thus not follow the "goto" route. :shrug:

The "station" city is very useful - particularly since it stops the route being blocked by AI units. But presumably there can be a situation where you need 2 "stations" - 1 for the route in each direction.

RJM at Sleeper's

	27-05-2004 11:52									#27
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@RJM

Yes to both your points!!

That's what I meant when I mentioned both..."you can place another city at the edge of each's radius". Sorry, I was not clear about that.

All of this is far from being critical in this game though. It matters more when your SSC/central city shares a land mass with an AI and is w/in 22 clicks. Trade routes of +35 to 40 are then possible after laying in the rails.

Monk

	28-05-2004 11:11									#28
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quote: Originally posted by Bloody Monk All of this is far from being critical in this game though. It matters more when your SSC/central city shares a land mass with an AI and is w/in 22 clicks. Trade routes of +35 to 40 are then possible after laying in the rails. Monk

As you say, not critical in this game, but undoubtedly one of the reasons that in the EL games my SSC seems to produce a lot less beakers than people such as yourself and Solo.

RJM at Sleeper's

PS I'd forgotten that the 2 stations would be at the edge of 2 different cities so that you're not attempting to build 2 cities on adjacent tiles which was the difficulty I had in mind.

	28-05-2004 11:28									#29
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Just to make sure this is clear...

SSC=source for the van
D=Destination for the van
S1=Station for SSC
S2=Station for D

SSC...S1...............S2...D

Where the stations are at the edge of "their" cities.

Monk

	29-05-2004 22:53									#30
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I always move my Caravans manually; the computer NEVER* does what I want it to do.