22-05-2004 23:08									#1
	Displacement devices suck Suffering from ads?

I hate it when the ai gets these they are hideous.

Because of the way probabilities work, if you have 2 weapons, there is only a 49% both will hit,9% of the time neither will hit, and the rest of the time only 1 will hit. And it gets worse with the more weapons you have.

I notice that the ai really gets its money's worth with these things.

	25-05-2004 00:14									#2
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I never see the AI use these.

	26-05-2004 05:56									#3
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If a game lasts long enough on impossible, the psilons show up with craploads of doomstars with them.

	27-05-2004 02:31									#4
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BY that point, why not use Stellar converters? they never miss, and with Structural Annalysers and Achilles, if it is minimized enough one of your DM's could have 4 or 5 of them.

	27-05-2004 03:22									#5
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I think you still get better bang with HV AF Disruptors even with the 33% missing.

	27-05-2004 20:19									#6
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No it comes before that point, about the time you get plasma cannons miniaturized a bit for me, since those are all or nothing weapons(each subhit doesn't get its chance independently) it seems even worse.

Once you get 15 space disruptors then its only a problem in that 1 doomstar can't take out 100 ships anymore .

	06-07-2004 22:16									#7
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quote: Originally posted by Garth Vader I think you still get better bang with HV AF Disruptors even with the 33% missing.

disrupters would rule all if they didn't take up so much space.

if the Psilon build a big fleet like that, just put as many AF, SP phasors as you can on a doomstar with the best targeting stuff you have, (ie rangemaster unit is nice for this) I usually put 10 360 AF SP phasors on also, just in case I end a turn uncloaked (happens sometimes, you kill 75% of their fleet and do something wrong) the smaller ships will certainly be singin the blues when if they fire on you.

throw on a phasing cloak, timewarp facil, and hyper-x. stick loknar or your best pilot in the ship.

if the enemy attacks you with the fleet, skip the turn. on the next turn, get somewhat close to their best ships, without appearing (figure up a line of sight and try to maximize the ships you will destroy without having to move again, this is usually in the middle or close to it)

you will need to have at least one phasor unshot at the end of your attack. so save one phasor somehow.

Decloak, you'll rape a quick 15 of their ships, then click wait. then click done.

you get another free turn. punk em out.

the ship does over 1000-1500 damage with ease, and more ammo to spare. stellar converter does like 2-3kish, so by far, the phasor ship is the best bang per buck. especially when it comes to owning an entire fleet with one or two ships. i never was a fan of those long battles. with this you come in looking for the knockout in round one ,no doubt.
two of these ships wins any game. i usually put a cloaked doomstar in there with a stellar converter for planetary stuff.

try it out. once you switch to this you'll >never< use a death ray or a disrupter again. I consider this ship an overpowered exploit, almost.

	06-07-2004 23:10									#8
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Why would anyone be worried about tactics if they have all the tech in the game and Loknar?

Why would I need doomstars, let alone cloaks and TWF. The AI will not be able to handle battleships. So everything is over powered by this point.

	06-07-2004 23:39									#9
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quote: Originally posted by vmxa1 Why would anyone be worried about tactics if they have all the tech in the game and Loknar? Why would I need doomstars, let alone cloaks and TWF. The AI will not be able to handle battleships. So everything is over powered by this point.

whoha said the ai had displacement devices, that's either the third to last, or second to last force field tech.

also, what would you put on a battleship to nullify a displacement device? there simply isn't enough space to put the weapons you'd need to do good damage. keep in mind if the ai is using displacement device, they most likely have hard shields. (of course if you had a 30 ship fleet of them, then that's a different ballgame.)

also note where I said 'if the Psilon send a large fleet against you' I thought that post was in this thread, I was mistaken. that comment was for the guy who was talking about how he always picked psilon so he didn't have to face their endgame fleet.

	07-07-2004 00:43									#10
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One way to prevent a problem with a large end game fleet (if that is a problem, I don't think it is) is to start smacking all fleets soon after you take down Orion.

Frankly I make my disrupter battleships and do not care what the AI shows up with. I just chew up anything they have, be it doomstars or titans.


I do not even look at their designs, I already know that my ships will not have any problems, even if out numbered.

As I have said many times, if I have tech for DS, I may make one for the purpose of destroying planets. I will mount one stellar to blow them up, so they cannot be colonized again.

If I have titan tech, I often get around (in a huge map only) to making one for each leader. This is so I can locate them quickly.

Many games I will not have either tech and only make battleships. They will normally only have reenforced hulls, stablizer, HeF, scanners as specials.

This lets me have more guns and still the AI rarely ever dust one. If they do so what? It is going to be replaced very soon.

	07-07-2004 00:51									#11
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The arguments for disruptors are when the ai shows up with class x hard shields.

1 heavy af disruptor has the damage output of slightly less then 3 heavy af sp phasors in that situation, and its only around 2x the cost.

	07-07-2004 00:55									#12
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Dunnagan I don't mean to seem like I am giving you a hard time. That is not what I am about. I am happy to have you aboard.

What I like to do is to ensure that players that come after do not think they need creative to win or that titans and doomstars are required.

If player want to play creative for fun, great. I do as well from time to time. If player want to make monster DS, great. I just want to be sure that new comers understand that is not needed.

	07-07-2004 01:00									#13
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quote: Originally posted by Whoha The arguments for disruptors are when the ai shows up with class x hard shields. 1 heavy af disruptor has the damage output of slightly less then 3 heavy af sp phasors in that situation, and its only around 2x the cost.

My argument for disrupters are that you can use them for anything you encounter, the phasors cannot.

I don't care about damage counts as my ships will just keep pasting them until they are gone. So if some other weapon could do it a bit faster, I am not concerned.

I want to be able to send this fleet anyway and know it will not be stopped. It may be slowed down, but not stopped.

	07-07-2004 01:22									#14
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quote: Originally posted by Whoha The arguments for disruptors are when the ai shows up with class x hard shields. 1 heavy af disruptor has the damage output of slightly less then 3 heavy af sp phasors in that situation, and its only around 2x the cost.

if I'm making an early phasor ship, I use rangemaster with AF,SP phasors only. although you lose out on some damage, you can fit twice as many phasors onboard. the rangemaster is beautiful.

	07-07-2004 01:32									#15
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quote: Originally posted by vmxa1 My argument for disrupters are that you can use them for anything you encounter, the phasors cannot. I don't care about damage counts as my ships will just keep pasting them until they are gone. So if some other weapon could do it a bit faster, I am not concerned. I want to be able to send this fleet anyway and know it will not be stopped. It may be slowed down, but not stopped.

that to.

	07-07-2004 01:33									#16
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I almost never get that tech, I'll have to try that out with an EC.

	07-07-2004 01:50									#17
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Only creatives will have rangemaster, but even then the size IIRC is 200 before any reducers.

That is a lot of guns for so little return. It only reduces the range penalty partially.

At this stage of the game you will get in one round at distance and then ships can close on you, so what is its real value?

To me I do no see any need to use all of those fancy specials that just eat up space. I guess because I played for so long with no creative races, you find you just don't need them.

	07-07-2004 01:54									#18
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quote: Originally posted by vmxa1 Dunnagan I don't mean to seem like I am giving you a hard time. That is not what I am about. I am happy to have you aboard.

Seemed more like constructive criticism, which I appreciate; rather than a hard time, but I appreciate the welcome. glad to be here, I was beginning to think nobody liked moo2.

quote: [SIZE=1] What I like to do is to ensure that players that come after do not think they need creative to win or that titans and doomstars are required.

up until a week or so ago I used to only play creative. now I'm experimenting with all the other stuff. alot of the stuff I do is still novice, I save the game before I rush if not trans-dimensional, etc. but I'm starting to do different things, I won a small map earlier yesterday silicoid-style with a Lith-+2Research combo without creative, that seemed to work really well.

Also what's cool about not playing creative is the feeling you get when a spy gives you a good tech. I did well with Lith/+2 research +2 production and diplo gov,I would have gotten uni, but Lith/uni seems like a waste (the food production part of uni is useless with lith) Definately more 'fun' to play non creative. (however if I was playing a multiplayer game I'd probably pick creative/artifacts/+1 research)

quote: [SIZE=1] If player want to play creative for fun, great. I do as well from time to time. If player want to make monster DS, great. I just want to be sure that new comers understand that is not needed.

I'm slow with all the abbreviations, what's DS?

	07-07-2004 01:58									#19
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Doom stars.

	07-07-2004 02:03									#20
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Sorry DS is DoomStar. A lith is great on a small map and dropping uni for +P's should be fine.

I agree it is some what rewarding to get a tech from spies as a non creative. Especially if it somethig like missile bases or a computer.

The one thing about dropping the Uni that may make it a bit harder is that you now need those morale boosters. You cannot sell of that barracks.

This is fine on a larger maps, but the small map does not allow the time to research and build those boosters and you won't have many as a non creative anyway.

So I have not tried it out to see, but I suspect it may be a bit of a hinder. It is really all about that first race near you.

As long as you can whack them, the rest of it will fall into place. If it takes too long to get on top of them, you will have problems.

	07-07-2004 02:17									#21
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quote: Originally posted by vmxa1 As long as you can whack them, the rest of it will fall into place. If it takes too long to get on top of them, you will have problems.

especially if you are repulsive (who isnt) and have psilon neighbors.

by far, on impossible with the prod+research bonus, psilons are the hardest race. especially when they upgrade to battlestations /c3 shields and I'm running around with mirv nuke cruisers lol. I felt like an army of primitive hunter-gatherer spearmen going up against a guerilla soldiers armed with submachine guns. yeah, it was bad. this happened the first few games I saw the psilons in when I didn't pick creative. really mandatory to take those guys out as soon as you locate them..AI plays them well. then again, ai plays almost every race well, even if methodic, as I've even seen the lowly gnolams rise to the top.

	07-07-2004 19:20									#22
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I personally think Phasors are the best bang for buck/space weapon in the game. They do good damage and you can get them down to a space rating of 5 with Shield penetration very early in the game. Add that with the Structural Analyzer and Achilles Targeting Unit and you have a rediculous ship for cheap.

	07-07-2004 21:29									#23
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quote: Originally posted by M Bison I personally think Phasors are the best bang for buck/space weapon in the game. They do good damage and you can get them down to a space rating of 5 with Shield penetration very early in the game. Add that with the Structural Analyzer and Achilles Targeting Unit and you have a rediculous ship for cheap.

but a fighter garrison will work a phasor ship over, it's nice to have some disrupters at that stage in the game, 1 or 2 on every ship is a good idea. this way if they have a fighter garrison you can just take it out first, let all your ships get a shot in, and then close in on the fleet with phasors

	07-07-2004 22:33									#24
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Fighter Garrisons are worthless against Phasors. I was just playing yesteray and my Phasor ships had no problems dispatching fighter garrisons.

	07-07-2004 22:52									#25
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quote: Originally posted by M Bison Fighter Garrisons are worthless against Phasors. I was just playing yesteray and my Phasor ships had no problems dispatching fighter garrisons.

if the planet has a barrier shield, phasors will not do one point of damage

	07-07-2004 23:25									#26
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If I recall correctly, Shield Piercing Phasors will penetrate planetary shields as well.

	07-07-2004 23:35									#27
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I don't think so. I can't swear to it, but I do not recall any ship I ever had with phasors only doing any damaged to a planet with barrier shields.

The point is that you are correct, phasors are great bang for the buck, up to a point. The problem is in the latter part of the game, the defenses are often too strong for this weapon.

You go to disrupters, because they will always work. It is not a fun thing to watch the fleet jerk around and do no damage, with phasors only.

	08-07-2004 00:04									#28
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Are you using Phasors with the Shield Piercing advantage? I am almost 100% certain that they will penetrate planetary shields as well as normal ship shields.

I use Phasors pretty much exclusively til end game on the highest difficulty and have no problems decimating fleets, planets, antarans and everything else thrown at me.

	08-07-2004 03:33									#29
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First there are three levels of planetary shields.
Rad
Flux
Barrier

Second SP mod is of no value against Anties as they do not have shields. They use the Damper Fields and even though it acts like a shields, the SP mods is not able to treat it that way.

So if you are whacking anties (I do not even bother to send ships to kill them) it has nothing to do with shield piercing.

As to planets, here is what I have seen a ton of times. Phasor only ships will come to some planets and if you hit auto they will just sit there and bounce around, until you retreat.

The point is that once I get disrupters, I will soon upgrade to them and drop the phasors as they are not needed.

It is often the case that no one in the game ever gets anything better than radiated planetary shields and so you are fine.

If they do get barrier shields and maybe even dampers, you may want something else.

In addition I am not all that fond of jamming in all those superfluous specials. I prefer more guns. This is especially true right after I get Hef.

At this point I cannot fit all that many guns in anyway.

Here is how I look at it. Even if Phasors are a better deal, there are cases they are not useful. There are no such cases for disrupters.

It is like the early 80's when some realestate friends told me to buy another house for investments. I told them I felt the market would soon collapse. I was right, but that was not my point.

My point was if I was wrong and they were right, all that happened was I did not make quite as much as they did.

If I was right, they lost their butts and many went broke. They made a foolish gamble.

This is the same thing. If I am wrong, all that happens is you blast their fleets and planets using fewer of your guns. If I am right, then you show up at a planet you cannot defeat.

I just looked at all my saves and none have the AI with barrier shields and that is not a surprise as that is a very late tech and the AI will not get it often.

Maybe I will find a creative game and give the tech to the AI to see if they can get it build and test this out.

	08-07-2004 04:06									#30
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My only point was that with one simple upgrade to Phasors, they make pretty much all but one beam weapon obsolete.

At that point, Phasors take up 5 space points with the Shield Penetration upgrade and disruptors take up 20 or so with no upgrades.

All I was saying. I'd rather save some costs and get my fleet built faster and then maybe later refit some with disruptors.