24-05-2004 08:24									#1
	When to give PAL writting Inflate your Upload Space

During chat, a heated debate about when to give PAL writting erupted between several of the teamates present. The agruments went in circles and it was descided that a discussion thread on the subject should be opened. This is that thread.

Discuss.

	24-05-2004 08:34									#2
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

During the chat, I was all in favor of sending PAL writting as accepted (hell, I think it was my idea).

I wanted to do this to ease any of the worries and fears that some members of PAL are having with us. However, I wanted to send them an e-mail along with this trying to convince them of the wisdom of not accepting the tech. As an alliance partner, I feel that we should give them writting (or any tech for that matter) whenever they want it. I do not think that we should hold back our tech from a partner. We should give it to them so they have the choice of turning it down.

With us having the tech, and them knowing we have it, and we aren't even giving them the choice of having it, we are holding it over their heads. It gives the impression that we are trying to tell them what is best for them. Its treating them like childeren.

	24-05-2004 08:48									#3
	Put an end to popups!

i see no reason not to give PAL writing now. whats the worst they can do, screw us over for a tech?

if they're willing to start a war over a tech, i'd be willing to fight it out.

	24-05-2004 11:11									#4
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

quote: Originally posted by Donegeal During the chat, I was all in favor of sending PAL writting as accepted (hell, I think it was my idea). I wanted to do this to ease any of the worries and fears that some members of PAL are having with us. However, I wanted to send them an e-mail along with this trying to convince them of the wisdom of not accepting the tech. As an alliance partner, I feel that we should give them writting (or any tech for that matter) whenever they want it. I do not think that we should hold back our tech from a partner. We should give it to them so they have the choice of turning it down. With us having the tech, and them knowing we have it, and we aren't even giving them the choice of having it, we are holding it over their heads. It gives the impression that we are trying to tell them what is best for them. Its treating them like childeren.

This is what I would do also


Send it to them as accepted.
And a note saying that we recommend that they decline it, so that we hide any inkling of our alliance from CDG.

Tell them we will continue to send it to them as accepted, every turn, to show that we have no intention of holding tech from our alliance partner.

	24-05-2004 11:50									#5
	Remove this text

I agree with this decision but just for the protocol what was the opposite side?
Why do I agree? Because PAL can very easily learn when CDG has the wriing and when did we receive it

	24-05-2004 12:58									#6
	Tired of ads?

Yes, what was the downside? I know that the costs of the RESEARCHING the tech are reduced fo a Civ for each Civ that has it, but besides that, what's the ramifications as far as CDG is concerned?

	24-05-2004 13:32									#7
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

People seem to be misunderstanding the issue. The issue, as raised by Togas, is whether PAL suddenly having Writing (obviously provided by Apolyton) would be too obvious a sign of the PAL-Apolyton alliance to CDG.

Given this, there was a concern that perhaps we should hold off on providing Writing to PAL in the interests of delaying the point at which CDG will realize the likely existence of the alliance and will attempt to pre-empt their own certain demise at its hands.

The debate seemed to swirl around two issues:

1. Whether PAL receiving Writing at this time would indeed make CDG suspicious of a PAL-Apolyton alliance or at least close relationship (and what implications this could have for Apolyton and CDG).

2. Whether to approach PAL openly about our concern and attempt to work with them on it or whether to simply delay sending them the tech and wait for them to actually ask for it before sending it.

	24-05-2004 18:23									#8
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

Why should we give it to them in the first place? Do we have a tech deal?

	24-05-2004 18:40									#9
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

WTF - we are allies!!!!!

Give them the D@mn tech, or send them a note explaining why we didn't NOW. Let them weigh the risk, and if they still want the tech now (which they right well might) then GIVE IT TO THEM. Otherwise, lets set up a quick chat and work out our procedures for trading so that CDG doesn't worry about this and, more importantly, PAL doesn't feel that we are F@CKING THEM OVER.

When we agreed to the alliance, we agreed to it. So we follow up on it or we start planning on killing them now before they get to be too big to kill easily.

Don't worry about CDG figuring things out. Let them. They will either break the tech deal first, or at worst have a few more defenders we may have to deal with. Big deal.

	24-05-2004 18:41									#10
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

Personally I think there is far less to lose in potentially tipping off CDG to us cooperating with PAL (do they think we AREN'T working with PAL at all?) than in not maintaining PAL's goodwill towards us.

I agreed with the rationale to delay the decision to send PAL Writing however as I do not know exactly what the risk is. That is what I want to ascertain now.

Can someone please explain to me this: if we gave PAL Writing how would CDG find out? If you say 'from the tech cost, which will drop as a result of the trade', we have already had such a thing happen when PAL donated us a few techs earlier on. Too late. Secondly, how would CDG not know that PAL did not get Writing from a hut? Again, if the answer is 'you normally get the lowest cost tech you do not already have from a hut', then simply we ensure CDG has no information that PAL is lacking any lower cost tech. All this is only in case CDG is actually aware of and using such tactics. We certainly don't on every turn (that I have noticed). Thirdly, why should it matter that CDG knows we are trading with PAL? We are (as far as they are concerned) trading with CDG, and being friendly to both teams.

Why give PAL Writing? The most recent communications suggest PAL (although generally disposed towards us) is a little concerned at our lack of reciprocity and seeming restraint in this relationship. A donation of an expensive tech like Writing should go a helluva long way to reassuring them that we are in this relationship with all the intentions they seem to have. Unless there is a better way (none has emerged to date), then this is a golden opportunity. We decided to share and share alike - no trades of this-tech-for-that, just give techs when researched unless by prior arrangement. From the PAL-Poly side, there IS no downside to this, assuming all of us are as committed to this form of relationship as I HOPE we are.

Perhaps I can be set to rights here, but having thought this through now I see no reason why we cannot go right ahead with giving PAL Writing next turn. If there are some knotty problems with this of which I am not yet aware, then we simply MUST talk to PAL about this, and explain to them carefully the reasons we do not prefer to give them Writing right now. They may have a solution, or they may understand completely. Why shouldn't they? After all, if we are not going to give them Writing, it will be because of a very valid and logical reason. And if we can't get them an anniversary present, we have to at least apologise and make sure we are fulll understood.

... and get them a much BETTER present on their birthday.

	24-05-2004 19:12									#11
	Increase Your PM Length

Give them the tech.

If CDG questions it (they have NOT questioned us giving PAL warrior code yet)

Just tell them we currently are trading techs with PAL. And we dont not have a no trade agreement with CDG if they ask about that.

If they push farther tell them we have a NAP with PAL. Which we essentially do, so its not really a lie, just not telling them all the facts.

We stand to lose to much in the alliance with PAL vs dealing with CDG.

My guess is they wont even notice, like I said they have not noticed or questioned warrior code to this point and we gave PAL warrior code ages ago.

	24-05-2004 19:27									#12
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

OK, I've just thought of a worst case scenario: CDG notice the trade with PAL, and they think that we will trade republic with PAL when we get it; they start to think of the reasons for doing this, and one of them is that we have an alliance.

They try to trade with PAL, but are rebuked, and they will know that we are going to attack them.

The only 2 problems with this happening is that they will start to prepare for war, or more importantly they stop researching CoL and start on philo: if we attack we will almost certainly have a despotic GA, and that will deprive us of one of our greatest strengths in the late game.

And these are just thoughts

	24-05-2004 19:40									#13
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

As Togas hasen't sounded off on this yet, I'll try to explain his side (as I understand it).

PAL wants our relationship with CDG to go down the tube. Togas feels that if we give PAL writting as accepted, no amount of talking will convince them that keeping our alliance secret by turning the tech down is in their best interest.

In chat, someone asked me if I would turn down a tech gifted to me. I answered that I would turn it down if their was a chance of messing something else up. And I have seem many other people turn down gifted techs.

In short, we believe that PAL doesn't need writting and it is actually in the Alliance's best interest that they not have it. PAL thinks that it is in the best interest for the Alliance to choke CDG and therefore want APO-CDG relationships to go down the drain.

PAL and APO have a difference of opinion on what is best for the Alliance.

	24-05-2004 19:47									#14
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

Ok, back to my side...

We should not be holding out any tech from an Alliance partner!

Also, lets look at what they have done for us in the past: They gave us Masonry and Wheel as accepted, in the hopes for a better relationship. No deals were made at that point.

Now in this situation, a deal has been made. We have agreed to be Alliance partners. We should offer any and all techs that we can to them as accepted every turn, just like they should do to us. We, and they, should only accept the techs when they are needed. We should not be telling them what they need or what is in their best interest. This is what being in an Alliance is all about.

	24-05-2004 20:49									#15
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

I'll post more after I talk with PAL about this.

But a few points:

1) CDG can open up their diplomacy screen with PAL to offer trades and notice that PAL has all of the techs they do. CDG is going to realize we traded those techs to them.

At that point, CDG will start asking us questions and may start drawing the obvious conclusions. None of which are good for us in the long or short term.

2) I have had previous talks with F-P about doing a tech ruse with CDG where PAL enters into a long-term tech deal with CDG to keep CDG research on a peaceful path. If CDG has nothing to trade to PAL, such a ruse is not possible.

3) PAL has no use for writing. PAL has not asked us for Writing. PAL is not theatening to not be out friends unless we hand over every tech we have immediately. Those of you who are suddenly paranoid about us not being good allies need to REREAD the email that we received:

quote: Stance 1: Warm and Friendly. (Previous stance post alliance towards Apolyton before this poll.) Stance 2: Reserved and friendly Vote currently stands 5 for option 1, 5 for option 2.

There's not a SINGLE ONE OF THEM who are asking for anything less than that.

If they wanted or needed it, we'd hand it over. Let's stop jumping to conclusions, and lets FIRST have a talk with them to see what sort of evil plans and schemes we can come up with (in the tradition of MZ) to fool CDG into complacency.

If they don't want to do some sort of tech scheme and they ask us to give them writing because they don't trust us, whatever. We'll deal with the matter then.

But handing it over "because we're allies" is foolish, shortsighted, and robs us of a potential to deceive CDG which should be a much higher priority right now because the situation with PAL is not bad at all.

--Togas

	24-05-2004 21:29									#16
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

I agree with Togas' latest proposal. Let's stop speculating and just chat with our allies.

	24-05-2004 21:54									#17
	Remove this text

quote: Originally posted by Arnelos I agree with Togas' latest proposal. Let's stop speculating and just chat with our allies.

	24-05-2004 22:03									#18
	Increase the size of your Attachments

Togas, handing them the tech does not mean they will accept it. Now I agree with you 100% that they don't need it and that it serves us better that they don't have it. But as allies, I feel that it is best to offer it to them so they can turn it down rather than us telling them when its best. That is not a plutonic relationship.

If they don't needed it and a better situation can arise from them not having it, don't you think that they would trun it down, even if gifted?

I certianly would and you have stated that you could convince them of the same. If that is true, and they will turn it down everytime we offer it to them, then what is the hesitation on offering it to them every turn until they accept it?

	24-05-2004 23:54									#19
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

I agree with Donegal - let PAL decide. We can advice them but they may have another ideas (building embassies and look at CDG's cities or Idon'tknowwhatelse). We can't make decisions what is better for them, they should do it theirself.
If CDG is better prepared they will suffer more because their cities are more distant than ours. Also they will attack with units with power of 2 and we could have swords.
In any case they are our partner not a little child we should care about. Giving them these opportunities we can make our concusions about their way of thinking and learn them better too.

	24-05-2004 23:58									#20
	Tired of ads?

That's all we can do now, considering we finished our turn and sent it

	25-05-2004 02:04									#21
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

quote: Originally posted by Togas 3) PAL has no use for writing. PAL has not asked us for Writing. PAL is not theatening to not be out friends unless we hand over every tech we have immediately. Those of you who are suddenly paranoid about us not being good allies need to REREAD the email that we received:

Exactly. Most important point here IMO. If it was Writing that granted enslaving Jags rather than Warrior Code, I might very well say send Writing and risk the diplomatic consequences. But PAL has no use for Writing and will not for a while. Why take the risk of CDG getting wise to us when there is no benefit? (Except possibly smoothing some ruffled feathers at PAL. Sheesh, I would think they would be the pragmatic ones who would realize they have no use for Writing.)

What we need to do next is chat with them and go back over this. If there are still problems then because they don't trust us, then we can deal with sending them Writing then, as Togas says.

	25-05-2004 02:50									#22
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

You are right that PAL has no use for it. I have yet to disagree with this statement (and I never will because it really is useless to them). I see it. You see it. Everyone sees it. Since everyone sees it, then why not send it to them as accepted every turn until they have a need for it. It will go a great length to make them less worried when they know they can have it at any time.

I also think that some people are missing what is trying to be discussed.

If we send them writting as accepted and pass on the save like that, CDG will not see that we have offered it to them because PAL would have yet to play the turn where they could accept it. There is no risk at this point whatsoever. Now when it PAL's turn, they will get the diplo screen from us that says we have given them writting as accepted, but they still don't actually have it yet. They would have to click the accept button before they would actually have the tech. Now as I and everyone else here have stated, they don't need it. If they don't need it yet, they just click the exit button and the deal is never completed. They don't end up with writting. What they end up with is a great feeling towards Apolyton because we have shone them that we are willing to give it to them. It would ease their concerns and go miles towrds improving our relationship with them, and no tech would have changed hands. The writting deal to PAL is never completed and CDG is none the wiser. The only thing it nets us is a better relationship with our ally (and at no cost).

So, I will say again because I have yet to see a satisfactory arguement against it, why not give writting to PAL as accepted everyturn until they accept it?

	25-05-2004 03:29									#23
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

I'm not so sure about every turn, but you make a good point. It would work quite well if they don't accept.

I think we should wait to see if we can chat with some of PAL's membership about this, but sending it to them accepted one time might be a good idea.

	25-05-2004 05:10									#24
	Increase the size of your Attachments

Whats the big worry about CDG getting upset anyways?

They would have no way to know if we give it to them or if they popped a hut.

	25-05-2004 07:32									#25
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

Can we slow down and not rush to give away the farm? Let's just meet, talk with them about what they want and expect with regards to tech, and see if they want to go along with the tech ruse that I have in mind. If they pass on it or if they request that we trade all techs immediately to keep things low-key between us, fine, we'll go that route.

It's just that once we give PAL writing, they can't give it back. There's no undoing it. And if in our chat later this week we come up with a great tech deception scheme and both love it ... we cannot enact is as we've hurridly and thoughtlessly given away the key to our deception.

quoting myself:

quote: I have had previous talks with F-P about doing a tech ruse with CDG where PAL enters into a long-term tech deal with CDG to keep CDG research on a peaceful path. If CDG has nothing to trade to PAL, such a ruse is not possible.

Let's see if something like this is in the cards first before we jump to tech equality. If CDG can trade with PAL they will seek to do so, giving them reason not to attack PAL nor reason to suspect PAL will attack them.

I have told CDG ambassadors several times that we have an excellent tech deal and we would certainly not betray them, as it would not be to our benefit to do so. The same logic can be used by PAL to lure CDG into a false sense of security because, ultimately, PAL can betray CDG because we can give PAL all of the techs anyhow!

--Togas

	25-05-2004 07:57									#26
	Tired of ads?

quote: Originally posted by Togas It's just that once we give PAL writing, they can't give it back. There's no undoing it.

Here is where the confusion is setting in. It is NOT once we give them writting, it is once they accept it.

	25-05-2004 08:35									#27
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

quote: Originally posted by Donegeal Here is where the confusion is setting in. It is NOT once we give them writting, it is once they accept it.

Yes, but I don't think Togas (and I) have the same faith in PAL on this matter you do...

I agree with Togas. Let's sit down and chat this out with them live before going to the diplo screen.

	25-05-2004 12:43									#28
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by Togas 3) PAL has no use for writing.

That's not a statement I would expect from you, Togas. Can you explain it??

	25-05-2004 15:02									#29
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

The whole 'they may not accept it if we offer it' thing is a bit flimsy, and a little beside the point, I think.

Togas and others - although I am glad there are moves to having a chat with them, and I agree until we have done so we should not give them Writing (accepted or unaccepted), we should not rule it out for the next few turns, if it is clear that it would help us get along with PAL for the near (and far) future. If you think it is paranoia to believe PAL may be losing some faith in us, is it not equally paranoid to believe that CDG will notice the techs, figure out they are due to trades, decide this is a hostile action, and then start to be hostile on their own accord? Hell, THAT sounds rather contrived to me!

Yes, I agree we are not in trouble with PAL yet. YET. BUT, we have just recently been given a very clear warning - things are not bad, but they could get so unless we wake up to what PAL members expect from us. We are not being told what we must do, only given a gentle hint that we should really do SOMEthing nice for them before too long to show that glorious goodwil this whole alliance is founded upon.

I prefer to heed this warning before we get towards the point we HAVE to do something, when those opinions are down around the 3 or below mark.

	25-05-2004 15:50									#30
	Increase the size of your Attachments

I understand what you guys are trying to do by not giving PAL writing. I really do.

But Ill offer my opinion.

We are trying to be too cute, simple as that.

Discussions about the alliance were that we shared techs. Simple as that.

Now with that being said go ahead and discuss this with PAL again. Lets see if they go for it. If they dont then just give them the tech.

We stand to lose a lot more in this alliance by being "cute", then we would if CDG expects something.

This is supposed to be a game long thing.

And I think you guys are giving CDG way to much credit.

Im just trying to tell it like it is thru PAL's eyes.

Remember if it was up to them we would be choking CDG right now.