01-06-2004 10:49									#241
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quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse 3) The Senate will be less powerful than in the US. Instead of having the ability to propose bills, write in amendments etc. they have a simple power of veto. They must vote on all bills passed to them by the Commons within 4(?) weeks. Commons may pass a bill over a Senate veto with a 2/3 supermajority.

The senate would still be too powerful.

Imagine a Commons with the Conservatives in a majority of less than two-thirds and a Liberal-controlled Senate. The Liberals would be in control because the Conservatives could never get 2/3 majority support in the Commons. We would end up a a Conservative government in name, but a Liberal government in reality.

	01-06-2004 10:50									#242
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No, we'd end up with a Conservative government under a Liberal veto.

	01-06-2004 10:50									#243
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quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse Does anybody else find the US legislative process as Byzantine as I do?

Why? They have several readings of any bill through both houses, just as we do.

The difference is that there the upper house may actually get uppity and act as a check, further to the check of the executive which must sign the damned thing. Which check we do not have because the bloody executive sponsored the bill in the first place.

In the place of the British Lords, we have a band of trained seals that get stuffed on occassion to assure the PM's will. They sometimes decide to delay a bill until after Parliament is disolved for an election. That is the limit of their normal uppitiness. We should have demanded they be elected to begin with. :grrr:

We live with a constitutional dictatorship. We simply change the dictator every 4 years if we are wise. Sometimes we are not wise and one of them gets a good 11 or 12 years in. Then we end up with $1 billion dollar software projects.

	01-06-2004 10:51									#244
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quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse No, we'd end up with a Conservative government under a Liberal veto.

Or a Liberal government with no veto at all.

	01-06-2004 10:52									#245
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quote: Originally posted by Tingkai The senate would still be too powerful. Imagine a Commons with the Conservatives in a majority of less than two-thirds and a Liberal-controlled Senate. The Liberals would be in control because the Conservatives could never get 2/3 majority support in the Commons. We would end up a a Conservative government in name, but a Liberal government in reality.

Remember, we stuff it when it gets uppity.

Bang your kazoos all you want, it is irelevant until elected.

	01-06-2004 10:52									#246
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Why do you claim that in such a system the Senate would be more powerful than the Commons? It would be the other way as far as I can see. Commons still holds a monopoly on drafting new legislation. They get first crack at everything. The Senate only gets to say "yes" or "no"

	01-06-2004 10:53									#247
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither Or a Liberal government with no veto at all.

I don't get it. Tingkai's claim is that the Conservatives (in this hypothetical) would hold Commons. Any legislation that they can't live with they simply do not have to pass in the first place.

	01-06-2004 10:54									#248
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I'm not totally decided on the Senate issue, but I'm leaning towards supporting a veto-only Senate that has equal representation for all regions.

Is this 'undemocratic'? No, I don't think so. 'One person, one vote' should not be able to override minority rights, I feel. The American Senate protects (or attempts to protect) small states from being totally massacred by the superstates... Canada needs to attempt a similar body.

Of course, this may just be my stereotypical Albertanness taking over.

	01-06-2004 10:54									#249
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither Remember, we stuff it when it gets uppity. Bang your kazoos all you want, it is irelevant until elected.

That's why I simply want to do away with it. It's always been irrelevant (at best).

	01-06-2004 10:58									#250
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quote: Originally posted by cinch I'm not totally decided on the Senate issue, but I'm leaning towards supporting a veto-only Senate that has equal representation for all regions. Is this 'undemocratic'? No, I don't think so. 'One person, one vote' should not be able to override minority rights, I feel. The American Senate protects (or attempts to protect) small states from being totally massacred by the superstates... Canada needs to attempt a similar body. Of course, this may just be my stereotypical Albertanness taking over.

What about minorities that don't have a province of their own? Anglos in Quebec. Francos in Alberta. Chinese in BC. Farmers in Ontario. Why is it that PEI (as a minority) deserves so much more representation than any of these other minorities?

At least the US has a historical justification for their blatantly undemocratic Senate.

	01-06-2004 10:58									#251
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quote: Originally posted by Tingkai Joe Clark A PM cannot do whatever he/she feels like doing. The PM must maintain the support of the party. Look at Thatcher. She lost support within her party and was kicked out of power. Diefenbaker had the same thing happen to him, IIRC.

It takes a certain kind of genius to apply minority government dynamics in an era which has seen majorities for the last 5 elections.

Speaking of Thatcher is meaningless. We have totally ****ed up the basic premise of British Parliamentary democracy. That being the supremecy of Parliament and the MPs, not the PMO and the power of the signing of the nomination papers.

	01-06-2004 10:59									#252
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quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse That's why I simply want to do away with it. It's always been irrelevant (at best).

It should be more. It NEEDs to be more.

	01-06-2004 11:02									#253
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quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse I don't get it. Tingkai's claim is that the Conservatives (in this hypothetical) would hold Commons. Any legislation that they can't live with they simply do not have to pass in the first place.

And I am pointing out what happens when one party governs for 4/5s of the time.

You get a government with no check in the senate because they are all good 'ol boys.

	01-06-2004 11:04									#254
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I don't get the connection of that with what I was saying.

I was responding to claims that my system would give the Senate much more power than the Commons, something I deny.

You responded with a truth about the current situation.

	01-06-2004 11:05									#255
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Maybe the Liberals rule 80% of the time because they're the choice of most Canadians 80% of the time?

	01-06-2004 11:12									#256
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And I was arguing at a page break.

As for ruling 80% of the time, they rule with no check. If the people approve of them so highly, perhaps they could be trusted to be given majorities in two houses 80% of the time.

	01-06-2004 11:16									#257
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Your actual points re the senate and being elected could be discussed.

Item 3 would be a given.

Item 2 not, but compromise from EEE people could be arrived at.

Item 1 is problematic. The idea of a second house is to balance the tyranny of the majority. Some minimum representation per region is required.

	01-06-2004 11:19									#258
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Actually, item 3 needs work, too.

	01-06-2004 11:24									#259
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I'm fundamentally opposed to giving some Canadians an institutional guarantee of more representation due simply to where they choose to live.

If I could I'd even get rid of the grandfathering clause that gives PEI 4(!) MPs with a pop. of 130 000

	01-06-2004 11:25									#260
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quote: Originally posted by cinch Is this 'undemocratic'? No, I don't think so. 'One person, one vote' should not be able to override minority rights, I feel. The American Senate protects (or attempts to protect) small states from being totally massacred by the superstates... Canada needs to attempt a similar body. Of course, this may just be my stereotypical Albertanness taking over.

The long memories of Albertans and British Columbians will be the best friends the Maritimes ever had, in the end.

	01-06-2004 11:26									#261
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Alberta, BC, Quebec and Ontario are already screwed over on their representation in Commons. There's no reason to throw even more seats at the other 6.

	01-06-2004 11:27									#262
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quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse I'm fundamentally opposed to giving some Canadians an institutional guarantee of more representation due simply to where they choose to live. If I could I'd even get rid of the grandfathering clause that gives PEI 4(!) MPs with a pop. of 130 000

Are we not 10 provinces?

Or are we simply the 2 monsters and 8 catspaws?

	01-06-2004 11:31									#263
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Alberta and BC aren't far behind Quebec now.

Why is it that 100 000 people living in my riding of Lac Saint Louis are worth less than 100 000 people living in PEI (so much so that those 100 000 people get 3 seats, whereas my 100 000 neighbours only get one seat).

Provincial lines are artificial. There's no reason a person living just west of the Manitoba/Ontario border should carry so much more political weight than someone living just east of it.

	01-06-2004 11:31									#264
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In other words, it's not my fault that I live in a big province. Why does living in a small one make Manitobans worth more?

	01-06-2004 11:32									#265
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quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse Alberta, BC, Quebec and Ontario are already screwed over on their representation in Commons. There's no reason to throw even more seats at the other 6.

I doubt you have the faintest idea of what I am talking about. Afterall, you have never been where it is to be a little guy and to feel shut out.

Trust me, Quebec and Ontario wish they could tempt Alberta and BC into the fraternity of the abusers, so that we turn our backs on our cousins in Manitoba, Saskatchewan, and the Maritimes.

Times will change. This nation will change. Central Canada be damned!

	01-06-2004 11:33									#266
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quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse Alberta and BC aren't far behind Quebec now.

Damned unfortunate fact that is, isn;t it?

	01-06-2004 11:36									#267
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You seem frisky tonight. I'm telling you that what you propose is simply going to throw a huge amount of political power at a small fraction of our population.

In a one province one vote system the majority of representatives would come from areas totalling something like 15% of our population. That's ridiculous.

	01-06-2004 11:36									#268
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quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse In other words, it's not my fault that I live in a big province. Why does living in a small one make Manitobans worth more?

No. Not your fault at all. However, you really need to be from one of the hinterlands to really know what we are blathering about. Either that, or have an imagination and excercise it.

	01-06-2004 11:37									#269
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I love how the West groups in Quebec with Ontario, as though the two had some sort of fundamental agreement as to how Canada should be run

	01-06-2004 11:38									#270
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither No. Not your fault at all. However, you really need to be from one of the hinterlands to really know what we are blathering about. Either that, or have an imagination and excercise it.

I doubt you have as much experience being a persecuted minority in a political system as I do.