26-05-2004 02:55									#61
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Let's try and work within your basic structure, rather than introducing unnecessary detail at this point.. I think just your last tweak alone is best. If you attack and destroy the opponent's fleet you take all his bases, but they contribute less than your bases.

Btw If you introduce base (culture) flipping I'm leaving!!

	26-05-2004 02:57									#62
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Ok you beat me. Is it really worth doing the specific base attack and intrinsic base defence? I think start simple with some reasonably balanced looking possibilities and see how it goes.

The only main thing that jumped out at me upon reading the initial rules (and I have a useless knack for these things) was that expanding was too powerful. In NW there is the city cap, and a structure whereby someone can't defend a big empire without always deflecting.

Here in your original rules you could build a big fleet, defend, and if someone attacks and wins, big deal you lose 1 base! If you tweak to base capture in some form it seems more attractive to attack.

Only thing is deciding what to do about players mopping up after 2 others had fought. Also how to divide the total should 2 players attack.

How about if you win the fight you take one base? We can then tweak the BP it yields later when we see how it works, and there are no complications with 2 attackers unless there is only 1 base.

Last edited by DrSpike on 26-05-2004 at 03:06

	26-05-2004 02:58									#63
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So changes 1, 2, 4 and 5 are definite already. What do you think of the others?

-Jam

	26-05-2004 02:59									#64
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Heh crosspost again.

All the above except 6 and 7?

-Jam

	26-05-2004 03:08									#65
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Oops. I confused the crosspost even further by adding in an edit.

So that's why you should always make a new post.

	26-05-2004 03:18									#66
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quote: Only thing is deciding what to do about players mopping up after 2 others had fought. Also how to divide the total should 2 players attack. How about if you win the fight you take one base? We can then tweak the BP it yields later when we see how it works, and there are no complications with 2 attackers unless there is only 1 base.

This is what we have if we implement the changes 1-5.

If two players attack (not allied) they fight two battles. It could happen that the first one wins, and takes a base, then the second one wins too and takes another base. If the first player took the last base, then that's hard luck to the second player. The empire they wanted to attack is gone.

If two allied players attack they must decide themselves what to do with the base. Perhaps they will share it and get 1 BP each from it? Perhaps they will form another agreement. Diplomacy is not covered by the rules - and this is intentional.

quote: The only main thing that jumped out at me upon reading the initial rules (and I have a useless knack for these things) was that expanding was too powerful. In NW there is the city cap, and a structure whereby someone can't defend a big empire without always deflecting.

Expanding is not as powerful as you think, as the cost of a base means you are lowering your defenses seriously. 16 BPs buys you 3 Titans! There was also a cap of 6 (built) bases suggested - with any number captured, of course.

Ok, I'm editing the added rules now.

Send me some base names, I'm trying to make the starmap

-Jam

	26-05-2004 03:28									#67
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Well with no base capture all those battleships are doing is winning the game for the other neutral players. That's why it was IMO too powerful to sit back in the original rules.

Ok, so start with one base captured when you win the combat? That looks good. And if you wipe out the fleet you hit the jackpot.

I'm not sure if it's gone too far the other way, but it should be more fun than everyone sitting back.

	26-05-2004 03:38									#68
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Not quite Spike... you have to eliminate the fleet to capture a base, so it may take two turns of combat. Just winning the combat stops the base producing the next round though, meaning victory is practically assured... unless they make a fast alliance!

Captured bases being only worth 2 BPs should stop it being too overpowering.

This is the nice middle route, and I'm think we should stick here.

code:

Attacker Eliminated - Whoops!
Attacker Defeated   - Base left intact
Combat Drawn        - Base left intact
Defender Defeated   - Base damaged - gives no BPs next turn 
Defender Eliminated - Base captured

	26-05-2004 03:38									#69
	Remove this text

Shouldn't 3) be winning the combat, rather than eliminating all forces?

Edit: Ok it's your call. I just wondered this way whether a weakened player would get Jampiled and the initial attacker left with no reward.

	26-05-2004 03:41									#70
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

You mean :

code:
Attacker Eliminated - Whoops!
Attacker Defeated   - Base left intact
Combat Drawn        - Base damaged - gives no BPs next turn
Defender Defeated   - Base captured 
Defender Eliminated - All Bases captured

	26-05-2004 03:41									#72
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Also someone can only lose a base if they have no ships left at all. This means piling next round is inevitable.

Edit: stop doing that!

Um, I'm not really sure which way it should be. But having it whereby a fleet has to be destroyed before a base can be captured looks wrong.

If you win the fight you get one base, but the player retreats with his remaining ships to his other bases. That was how I envisaged it.

	26-05-2004 03:43									#73
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

You're right. Let's go with your plan.

-Jam

	26-05-2004 03:44									#74
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quote: Originally posted by Jamski You're right. Let's go with your plan. -Jam

	26-05-2004 03:47									#75
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Ok, I've edited everything into the Rules Changes and Clarifications post above. Surprisingly few changes in the end

Let's close it here, and get those prebuild orders and base name lists sent in so we can give it a whirl.

-Jam

	26-05-2004 04:52									#76
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quote: Expanding is not as powerful as you think, as the cost of a base means you are lowering your defenses seriously. 16 BPs buys you 3 Titans! There was also a cap of 6 (built) bases suggested - with any number captured, of course.

However, it takes 5 bases to be able to build Titans.

	26-05-2004 05:08									#77
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Is there some hidden advantage to using the bigger ships?
At the moment the cost scales in direct proportion to the number of weapons they carry, the cost to repair damaged ships is the same as the build cost for an equivalent number of weapon factors and damaged ships can't be used in combat ...
Not only that but with only one combat round, per se, you don't preserve weapon factors in a single battle by taking damage to a larger ship as opposed to losing smaller ships.
There doesn't seem to be any point at all in building cruisers or above.

Perhaps repair costs could amount to half of the build cost and damaged ships should be allowed to use half of their weapon factors?

	26-05-2004 05:16									#78
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The advantages are simply more survivalbilty, and better value repairs.

All repairs cost 1 BP, whether you're fixing a cruiser or a titan. The bigger the ship, the less likely it will be destroyed, and the more economical it is to repair.

The disadvantage is a loss in flexibility.

So the advantages are small, but in general the large ships are slightly better to have than the smaller ships.

-Jam

	26-05-2004 05:33									#79
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Ah. Understood. Didn't realise repair costs were 1 BP for everything.

So the only really pointless ship then is the cruiser?

ie: You can't use it when it's damaged and the 1 BP rebuild cost (in addition to losing the 1 hp in battle) is identical to the cost of replacing a frigate.

	26-05-2004 06:11									#80
	Remove this text

Now I don't understand the rules any more.

Jam, could you please wait until tomorrow afternoon? If not, feel free to substitute me with Doc or someone else.

	26-05-2004 06:32									#81
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

quote: Use Spy : If you have a Spy you may stop one of your opponents orders that turn being exectuted.

This stops normal orders only or all orders?

My orders are in now.

	26-05-2004 06:32									#82
	Put an end to popups!

Has anyone used the

code:

Someone set us up the bomb - All your base are belong to us

	26-05-2004 09:16									#83
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Quick question: are ships automatically repaired if you have BPs? Because I can't see any repair orders on the list

	26-05-2004 09:41									#84
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quote: Build Ships/Bases : You may spend your BPs or stockpile them for later. Ships built that turn may be used for attack and defence, Bases built may be destroyed that turn. Damaged Ships may be fully repaired for a cost of 1 BP (Now you see why big ships are good)

Its part of the build ships/bases order.

	26-05-2004 12:42									#85
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Skanky is reading the rules

Spy stops Attack, Rebuild Shield & Train Spy only.

Ok, I have prebuild orders from everyone except Ljcvekto and Spaced (although Spaced has sent me his Base names.)

quote: So the only really pointless ship then is the cruiser? ie: You can't use it when it's damaged and the 1 BP rebuild cost (in addition to losing the 1 hp in battle) is identical to the cost of replacing a frigate.

Well... except that 1 BP build cost is putting 2 guns on the field, whereas replacing a frigate only puts 1 gun into battle for the same cost.

Everyone has till this afternoon (about 1-2pm GMT) to get the prebuilds in. For your information the most popular ship so far is the ********, but by a tiny margin

Actually, scrap that. Let's start at around lunchtime, and those that didn't send prebuild orders havn't lost out, as they can use their 20 BPs in the first turn to build stuff.

Good plan.

-Jam

	26-05-2004 13:08									#86
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1 cruiser. Take one damage. You now need to spend 1 BC to get 2 attack points into a battle or no BC for 0 attack points.
2 frigates. Take one damage. You now need to spend 1 BC to get 2 attack points into a battle or no BC for 1 attack point.

Cruisers are teh suck.

	26-05-2004 14:06									#87
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Titans are teh 1337, on the other hand.

Can I have the purple-coloured bases please Mr Jamski, please!
And this may be stating the obvious, but can you please post the new thread once you've got your star map finished, and put all of the (heavily amended) rules as the first post. (please)

	26-05-2004 14:17									#88
	Increase the size of your Attachments

I will do and I will do. Colours are already applied for everyone, and put on the map (I made all the graphics myself! Oooh! Even the stars!) so you'll get what you're given.

Titans are indeed the 1337

I've made a set of Galactic Overlord^tm avatars if anyone wants one.

Here's an example :

-Jam

Last edited by Jamski on 26-05-2004 at 14:23

	26-05-2004 14:19									#89
	Get a bigger avatar today!

Base names:

Base 1, Base 2, Base 3.

	26-05-2004 14:24									#90
	Increase the size of your Attachments

Heh - I already called your bases that

Another try at attaching the right example :

-Jam

Attachment: galacticoverlordavatar4 kopie.jpg
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