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Q Cubed
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t3h y3ll0w p3ril
Apr 1999
time: 23:36
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'racially charged?' |
yes. as in there's a very clear reference to race there, one that is very likely to polarize people's stance on the issue.
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No, and I don't believe Coulter is saying this. I do agree that the tragedy of the relocation of Japanese Canadians and Americans has been blown out of proportion. It's still a tragedy, but in light of the Nanking Massacre, can hardly be compared. |
that's not what i'm saying.
in fact, it's not even close.
what i'm saying is that coulter is wrong to link an american to the atrocities committed by the japanese.
so he happens to be japanese in ethnicity. he was born american, he suffered as a japanese american, and now serves as an american. he has virtually no links to crimes perpetrated by the japanese other than his ethnicity, and rather than perpetrating those crimes because of his origin, he suffered because of them.
should i link vonnegut or einstein to the holocaust because they've got german blood? why should mineta be linked to the bataan death march because he's got japanese blood?
and hell, why even bring up the nanking massacre? is the evil of the internment necessarily less so because the japanese--not the japanese americans--committed something worse? it still doesn't change the fact that the most slanderous comment she makes against mineta is linking him to yet another atrocity committed by people who really only share the same skin color, facial shape, and a smidgen of cultural heritage.
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I don't think it should matter one bit, your ethnicity. I'm supporting one of you mongoloids in the Conservative party in my riding, whom I think is a fine candidate.
I live in Hongcouver, for pete's sake. We're a minority in some of the suburbs.
I've even dated a Korean for a short while. If you don't believe it, you can prolly find quotes in the OT Archive when I first started posting in OT. |
i think it does matter, my ethnicity, in this case. i'm an american, but i'm not willing to pretend that i haven't got asian origins. because of that, i find it quite offensive that when people with similar ethnic origins are smeared and stereotyped because of those origins. i don't care that you've dated an asian, nor am i saying that all rightists are necessarily racially motivated. i don't care if you're supporting a conservative asian canadian, because what matters in that case is that he's canadian, not that he's asian. it doesn't matter one whit because you're not the one who would be branded as a foreigner based on your looks.
the problem with coulter's column in this case is precisely that she makes such a big deal about his ethnicity. she makes it an integral part of the piece. if you took out all references to mineta's "japanese-ness", you would end up with less than half of the paper, and most of that focusing on arabs in a rather unpleasant light instead.
simply put, i know i've got asian blood, but i'm an american. i'm sure mineta seems himself as an american first, then one of asian origin. coulter, on the other hand, focuses entirely on the fact that he's asian, that he's "different", that he's "un-american". it's easier to paint someone as un-american when they don't look like they bake apple pies at home.
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By your reaction, I think she's spot on. If this man in particular, was not Asian, would he have a job? The vehemence of your reaction seems to say that she's hit a sore spot.
If he is competent at his job, that is one thing, but it does no one any good to have someone who is incompetent, regardless of their race.
I'm still looking for the section that is 'racially charged.' It's not racist to accuse someone of being incompetent. Coulter is not saying that all Japanese are incompetent, just questioning why this man, in particular, has his job. |
oh, please, ben. that's far from what she's saying. not only is she making such a big deal about his being a minority is because it's more ammunition. there are hundreds of ****ing ways to say the man's an incompetent buffoon without resorting to mentioning his ethnicity, his minority status.
the implication of what she's saying with that remark, when coupled with the other paragraphs, is that mineta, a democrat, and what's worse, a minority, is not only incompetent, but also a traitor whose exoticism makes him the perfect example of all of those foreigners who want to see america burn, and that's precisely why she laments the fact that he's not dead.
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How well did the Japanese treat the Koreans and other Chinese?
To say that there is unity among 'asians' ignores the fact that they have treated each other far worse than the Americans and Canadians have treated the Asians. It doesn't excuse the US and Canada but to accuse the one of racism and not the other, ignores history. |
the fact that the japanese were race supremacists does not excuse the fact that coulter linked an american of asian decent to something the japanese, who were not and are not americans, did.
the problem, ben, is not that the japanese did bad things, or that the americans did bad things. it's that someone who is quite clearly american is being painted as a foreigner and being linked to one of the most indelible atrocities committed by that foreign group. why? because both the group that committed the atrocities and the person in question were, at one point, long in the distant past, the same. the fact that my distant cousin murders sixty people does not make me a mass murderer, and it's a grave insult to link me to it for no better reason than the same last name.
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Only mongoloids say 'zed'. There's your connection. |
indians don't quite count as mongoloids. east asians, by and large, learn international americanized english, so those mongoloids don't say zed. as far as most retarded people, also mongoloid, who happen to live in america, don't say zed because it's hard enough to teach them the ****ing alphabet.
Last edited by Q Cubed on 01-06-2004 at 08:12
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Ben Kenobi
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McGregornobi!
Oct 2002
time: 21:36
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oh, please, ben. that's far from what she's saying. not only is she making such a big deal about his being a minority is because it's more ammunition.
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Again, who's the one making a big deal about his ethnicity? The folks who hired him just because he's Japanese? Or Ann Coulter for pointing that out? You ought to be praising her! She wants to end this special treatment, for the same reasons you are lambasting her, because she feels all Americans ought to be treated the same.
She doesn't want these differences to keep coming up, and so long as someone, who is incompetent, cannot be fired, because of his ethnicity, you will never be treated like an American.
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there are hundreds of ****ing ways to say the man's an incompetent buffoon without resorting to mentioning his ethnicity, his minority status.
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Fair enough. But why hasn't this man been turfed out if he is incompetent? That's the question Coulter's trying to hammer home.
Japanese, and minorities are given preferential quotas and hiring practices. The only way that these minorities will ever be treated like anyone else, is if these policies no longer exist.
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mineta, a democrat, and what's worse, a minority, is not only incompetent, but also a traitor whose exoticism makes him the perfect example of all of those foreigners who want to see america burn, and that's precisely why she laments the fact that he's not dead.
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Coulter does not say that she wishes that this fellow were dead. She's just saying that the current policy blows everything out of proportion. In emphasising the suffering of the Japanese-Americans who were interned, they ignore the suffering of the American soldiers on Bataan. She's spot on when she says this.
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you also fall in to the same trap far too many non-asians do: that we're still foreign, even if we were american-born and raised having sucked down more coke and eaten more hamburgers than we have sticky rice and sake.
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Oh, I'm treating you like a foreigner? I think you folks are just as much a part of your country if you were born here as those whose families have been here 3 or 4 generations.
I'm just sick and tired for getting blamed for racism in exposing the inherent racism imbued in preferential hiring practices.
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the same holds true for other groups too.
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No, that's not true. You may not beat each other up on a regular basis, but there is animosity between the various groups.
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indeed, non-asians tend to see east asians as an undifferentiated mass.
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And that's precisely the attitude I tried to combat. I know there are differences between the Chinese, and the Japanese, and the Koreans. I've seen them for myself. That's why I bring up Nanking.
So how about giving me a little credit rather than labelling me as the normal Gaijin?
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the recurring american fear of the yellow peril any less worse.
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What recurring american fear of the yellow peril? I fail to see any evidence of it's existence.
As for the slavery, particularly on the Canadian railroads, there is no excuse for that. However, if you want to bring up history and to blame a peoples for the actions of the past, then you need to take the Japanese to court for their atrocities as well.
The Americans and the Canadians should not shoulder the blame alone, yet they are always the ONLY ones held responsible for past atrocities, regardless of historical fact.
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coulter's column merely drives that point home for many of us. that's why we find it so offensive, ben. that's why i find it so offensive.
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Then you should thank her for rooting out incompetents who take advantage of racist hiring policies that divide Americans from one another, rather than shooting the messenger.
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Q Cubed
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t3h y3ll0w p3ril
Apr 1999
time: 23:36
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quote:
Again, who's the one making a big deal about his ethnicity? The folks who hired him just because he's Japanese? Or Ann Coulter for pointing that out? You ought to be praising her! She wants to end this special treatment, for the same reasons you are lambasting her, because she feels all Americans ought to be treated the same. |
the beef i have with coulter is not how or why somebody else hired mineta. the thrust of her piece that i take issue with is the fact that, rather than being colorblind, she deliberately focuses on his ethnicity before launching into her attacks on his competence, then lambasting him with something a different people did simply because they have similar origins.
i'm not arguing that he should be given preferential treatment. in fact, i hadn't even considered aa for aa in this particular instance; i brought out her *****ing about it because it truly seems like she really loves the fact that he's part of a minority which it's still ok to smear because nobody else gives a damn.
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She doesn't want these differences to keep coming up, and so long as someone, who is incompetent, cannot be fired, because of his ethnicity, you will never be treated like an American. |
an african american person who is incompetent often cannot be fired because of his ethnicity.
often times, they're still considered american.
an asian american person who is incompetent and native born, often cannot be fired because of his ethnicity.
often times, he's asked when he'll go back to his native country.
an asian american person who is competent and native born, often cannot be fired because of his ethnicity.
often times, he's asked when he'll go back to his native country.
when a black person doesn't immediately respond to someone's requests, almost never do you hear the requestor suddenly speak extraordinarily slow and much much louder as if to make it clearer: "English... mother... ****er... do... you... speak... it...?"
when an asian person doesn't immediately respond, almost invariably this will happen.
a black person isn't viewed as exotic or foreign by most people. an asian is. black people helped build this country, and everybody recognizes that in some areas, it was built on their backs. asian people too helped build this country. everybody still thinks we didn't really start arriving until recently.
people run from the black ghettos because of the crime. people go towards the asian ghettoes because it's exotic, it's foreign.
now, pray tell, how again does affirmative action make you treated less like an american? if anything, it's an american as well as communist institution, this idea of promoting equality through mediocrity. but how again does make asians seem any less american when we're not viewed as american in the first place?
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Coulter does not say that she wishes that this fellow were dead. She's just saying that the current policy blows everything out of proportion. In emphasising the suffering of the Japanese-Americans who were interned, they ignore the suffering of the American soldiers on Bataan. She's spot on when she says this. |
cf.
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According to initial buoyant reports in early February, enraged travelers rose up in a savage attack on the secretary of transportation. Hope was dashed when later reports indicated that the irritated travelers were actually rival warlords, the airport was the Kabul Airport, and Norman Mineta was still with us. |
how else am i supposed to read that? that maybe the secretary of transportation just got a little spanking?
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Oh, I'm treating you like a foreigner? I think you folks are just as much a part of your country if you were born here as those whose families have been here 3 or 4 generations.
I'm just sick and tired for getting blamed for racism in exposing the inherent racism imbued in preferential hiring practices. |
jesus christ, i'm not even talking about the ****ing hiring practices. it's not even remotely related to what bothers me about coulter's column, and quite frankly, i don't see why you think it's that big of an issue when there's a huge ****ing elephant sitting there next to us.
besides, that comment was in direct response to this notion that there isn't any commonality between asian peoples because of what happened back in asia. talk second and third generation asians. more often than not, they know of the issues, but will quite frankly not give a ****. what's important to us is that we're americans, and all of us slanty-eyed folk have more in common with each other than we do with the people back in our ancestor's homes.
it's bullshit to argue otherwise. that's not to say that it's all shits and giggles getting the various asian ethnic groups to work together, but there's very little bitterness between the immigrants here.
we're all viewed as asians by the general populace. we view ourselves as americans with various asian origins.
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No, that's not true. You may not beat each other up on a regular basis, but there is animosity between the various groups. |
of course there is. there's animosity between the argentinians and pretty much everybody else, and the puerto ricans and mexicans apparently hate each other.
even so, they're still viewed as "more american". they still get more benefits from their "minority" status. they still end up being, by and large, treated as american even if they don't make an effort to learn the ****ing lingua fraca.
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What recurring american fear of the yellow peril? I fail to see any evidence of it's existence. |
the immigration moratoriums
the nips.
the fear of those goddamned chinese.
the gooks on the tet offensive.
the nips again, buying our country out from under us and destroying our industry.
the clinton finance fiasco, the wen ho lee fiasco, and everything else with resurgent china, including them stealing our jobs.
it's periodic. at least with the nazis, people made the distinction between nazis (BAD germans), and germans (the good kind). no distinction made for the japanese. the evidence, to me, is quite clearly there, particularly when the feeling towards asians in general gets a noticable shift. every time some **** goes down, people trust asians less. the closest asian they know probably works with them, and so he gets the **** thrown on him.
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As for the slavery, particularly on the Canadian railroads, there is no excuse for that. However, if you want to bring up history and to blame a peoples for the actions of the past, then you need to take the Japanese to court for their atrocities as well. |
why? in this case, japanese atrocities do not somehow outweigh the atrocities committed in the americas. they're evil. one is less evil, but that does not change the fact that it was evil.
what i'm trying to say is that the attitude towards asians, although it has lightened, is nowhere near complete acceptance.
note that it's still somewhat OK for non-asians to say Jap, Chink and any of the other racial slurs, but it's NOT OK for them to say racial slurs about other minorities.
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The Americans and the Canadians should not shoulder the blame alone, yet they are always the ONLY ones held responsible for past atrocities, regardless of historical fact. |
what the ****? where am i making this claim?
i'm not saying japan is ****ing blameless. i'm saying that mineta is a ****ing japanese american, an american who is being linked to something he didn't ****ing do on the basis of his ancestry. i'm saying that's a ****ing problem. i don't think that the ****ing bataan death march was some camping trip, and i'm not sure whether to be amused or insulted by the fact that you think to lecture me on what atrocities the japanese did in order to make the american ones seem not as bad.
i'm quite painfully aware of the atrocities imperial japan committed. which is why i find it so offensive that an american who eats hot dogs, goes to ball games, and watches american news, who didn't commit any atrocities, is linked to something someone else did.
i'm not arguing against any other issue in her column. i don't find her stance on racial profiling that bothersome. i do find her linking an american, a ****ing native-born second-generation american, whose parents suffered through a lot just to get here so he could have a ****ing american life, to a horror committed by a people he wasn't a part of.
i know some american-nigerians. should i link them to the nasty civil war? i know some american-serbians. should i link them to the genocide in the balkans?
why then should i link an american-japanese to the bataan death march?
is it not a bit racially charged? is it not a bit offensive?
where in jesus ****ing christ's holy name do i make the case that the JAPANESE are innocent? the entire ****ing time i've been arguing that an AMERICAN who happened to be of japanese descent is being linked to something the JAPANESE did.
in simpler ****ing terms:
some JAPANESE == not innocent.
particular AMERICAN == innocent.
particular AMERICAN != some JAPANESE.
i know the atrocities the japanese did. i'm not saying that they should be forgotten. i've been saying it's wrong to link someone to something someone else did based on nothing more than ****ing RACE, and it's offensive.
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So who's fault is that? Me or society?
I can only be held responsible for my own actions, and not those of my society. |
jesus, ben, i'm not blaming you for ****ing anything. i don't see why you even brought that stuff up, because my beef here is with coulter and the language she used, not with you. not with anything you've done. i don't care about your politics, i don't care about who you like and don't like, because quite frankly, it's immaterial in this argument.
the argument is that coulter deliberately used offensive and racially charged remarks, and yet nobody outside of the asian american community seems to give a damn.
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MichaeltheGreat
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Apolyton Grand Executioner
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mooning the house that Ruth built.
Oct 1999
time: 21:36
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quote:
Originally posted by Ben Kenobi
Again, who's the one making a big deal about his ethnicity? The folks who hired him just because he's Japanese? Or Ann Coulter for pointing that out? You ought to be praising her!
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You're assuming she's accurate in her statement that a 9 term ex-Congressman who sat on a committee overseeing a cabinet department is wholly unqualified to be appointed to head that department, and was instead hired solely for ethnic purposes.
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She wants to end this special treatment, for the same reasons you are lambasting her, because she feels all Americans ought to be treated the same.
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She doesn't want these differences to keep coming up, and so long as someone, who is incompetent, cannot be fired, because of his ethnicity, you will never be treated like an American.
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Cabinet secretaries, deputy secretaries, and other executive appointees serve at the pleasure of the President. They can be removed at any time, for any reason or no reason. So why is Mineta suddenly incompetent? Congress failed to fund and mandate effective passenger screening, airlines and passengers didn't want it, the Department of State, FBI, CIA, and INS all dropped the ball repeatedly on these 19 *******s, but Mineta and DoT are suddenly "incompetent" and bear responsibility? Everything was hunky-dory except for that America-hating token slope, right?
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Fair enough. But why hasn't this man been turfed out if he is incompetent? That's the question Coulter's trying to hammer home.
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"If he is incompetent" - perhaps you've answered your own question. Or perhaps Mineta is incompetent, but Bush is too much of a coward and is pandering for Asian votes, assuming those slopes will vote for him if he keeps one in his administration? Or perhaps Bush realizes if you start to sack senior officials for their alleged or actual failings over 9/11, the list neither starts nor ends anywhere near Mineta.
Naaah, it's just because he's the token slope and we don't dare touch him. 
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Japanese, and minorities are given preferential quotas and hiring practices. The only way that these minorities will ever be treated like anyone else, is if these policies no longer exist.
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Nice stereotype, rapidly approaching urban myth. You'll be hard pressed to find private employers in the US who are still under government mandated hiring quotas, except those implemented under judgments or consent decrees related to past or present unlawful discrimination. I've had a lot of private sector clients and employers, from Fortune 100 companies down, and have yet to deal with a private employer with a mandated quota, even among those employers with past discrimination violations.
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Coulter does not say that she wishes that this fellow were dead.
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Only implies it, in a way so blatant only an ardent apologist would try to lawyer around it.
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In emphasising the suffering of the Japanese-Americans who were interned, they ignore the suffering of the American soldiers on Bataan. She's spot on when she says this. |
Bullshit. Internment of Japanese-Americans was an official policy of the United States government. The murder of POW's on the Bataan death march* was the unlawful policy of the Empire of Japan and the IJA. One is irrelevant to another, unless you want to argue linkage, that is the internment policy was intended to punish whatever Japs we could get our hands on at the time. 
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Oh, I'm treating you like a foreigner? I think you folks are just as much a part of your country if you were born here as those whose families have been here 3 or 4 generations.
I'm just sick and tired for getting blamed for racism in exposing the inherent racism imbued in preferential hiring practices.
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My family's been here 18 generations. And my white southern boy self is able to see racism is alive and well in the good ol' US of A.
No, that's not true. You may not beat each other up on a regular basis, but there is animosity between the various groups.
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What recurring american fear of the yellow peril? I fail to see any evidence of it's existence.
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The anti-Chinese laws and leagues, the Insular Cases, anti-asian immigration laws, restrictive covenants on property, Iacocca and other's "Japan Inc." rationalizations for US industry losing it's ass in the 70's to 90's, hostility towards Vietnamese and Laotian (Hmong) refugees, etc. etc. For a start.
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The Americans and the Canadians should not shoulder the blame alone, yet they are always the ONLY ones held responsible for past atrocities, regardless of historical fact.
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If you were on trial for murder, would you consider the acquittal of O.J. Simpson a relevant argument for your defense?
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Then you should thank her for rooting out incompetents who take advantage of racist hiring policies that divide Americans from one another, rather than shooting the messenger. |
If she'd ever done such a thing, maybe. Instead, she's used the race of a cabinet official, and innuendo, stereotype, and falsehoods to weave together a scenario her audience is all too eager to swallow.
Last edited by MichaeltheGreat on 01-06-2004 at 22:54
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Berzerker
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topeka, kansas,USA
May 1999
time: 23:36
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the immigration moratoriums
the nips.
the fear of those goddamned chinese.
the gooks on the tet offensive.
the nips again, buying our country out from under us and destroying our industry.
the clinton finance fiasco, the wen ho lee fiasco, and everything else with resurgent china, including them stealing our jobs.
it's periodic. at least with the nazis, people made the distinction between nazis (BAD germans), and germans (the good kind). no distinction made for the japanese. the evidence, to me, is quite clearly there, particularly when the feeling towards asians in general gets a noticable shift. every time some **** goes down, people trust asians less. the closest asian they know probably works with them, and so he gets the **** thrown on him. |
You forgot the original yellow peril - those opium smoking chinese from the gold rush/railroad years.
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01-06-2004 07:57
it was in a meeting last year, actually. we're all supposed to say zed when we're around you.
I think my mother's family has you beat.
Plenty of 9 term congressmen have only successful elections to commend them. Depending on what district he ran in that might not have been much of a challenge.
There are definitely people in congress, white or black or other, who got there playing the race card at every turn.
You should talk? I'm only the 7th generation from the Revolutionary War, whippersnapper! I'm forty and still younger than my grandfather was when his first child was born.
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