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Santiago_Claus
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A nuts-and-bolts question: how many formers do you build?
The strategy consensus seems to be aggressive ICS coupled with extensive use of supply crawlers ... that requires a lot of improved territory, which means a lot of formers.
Particularly if you beeline to IA you're going to have bases and a rapidly-expanding army of supply crawlers competing for a very tiny pool of improved terrain. Forest doesn't grow nearly fast enough to accomodate both. Add to this the need to expand the borders and build those turn-eating "advanced improvements" and it seems as though one resource, former-time, is gatekeeper to all other progress.
Everyone talks about supply crawlers ... what about the humble terraformer? Do you build a couple or a couple hundred?
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CEO Aaron
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Everything has its price. Even you.
Aug 2002
time: 05:36
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For Morgan: 1 per base until I have IA. Once I'm crawling a few mins to offset the support hit, 2 per base. Once I get clean reactors, I really go to town, building as many as 6-8 per core base. The periphery bases will have less, as I'm more preoccupied with building their infrastructure than fielding more formers.
For Zak, Dee and Cult: Always 2 formers for your first 2 bases, then 1 per additional base, again, with a second former once IA is in effect.
For Spartans, Hive, Believers, 2-3 per base, as soon as I can build them. (Yes, I play Spartans in a police state)
The important thing is to have sufficient formers to achieve your terraforming goals. Formers are the key to building a monster economy. In addition, once you've completed improvements to your core territory, you can use formers to raise land bridges, build energy parks, whatever you like.
Formers pay for themselves with alarming speed, and more than worth a little upkeep. If you played Civ or Civ 2 before this game, you know that they used to require food upkeep in addition to any other support requirements, so in that light, SMAX formers are an incredible deal.
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Googlie
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Commanding Officer, CRYPTEIA
Apr 1999
time: 21:36
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While still getting ther free row of minerals, a former, rushed if the ec's are there, befoe even a defensive scout unit
By the time I get to Ind Auto I'll have between 8 and 15 formers working.
But there's another claim on their time too (at least the way I play) and that's roads to future base sites and sensor arrays at those sites. (And if you have the PTS, sites need to be primed for nutrients as well before plonking a Colony Pod down)
A typical game (my own "Horns of a Dilemma" scenario) by 2265 I had 14 fungiformers and 3 fungiseaformers, and 16 fusion rover supply crawlers and 3 trawlers. But I was forever in getting to Ind Auto in that game.
From another game save (Miriam, 2274) I had 22 formers and 4 seaformers, with 23 crawlers and 3 trawlers.
So I guesss that evidence points to almost a 1:1 ratio for the first 150 years or so
By 2300, though the ratio is different (as is the faction - Morgan this time) - 15 formers and 2 seaformers working for 29 crawlers and 3 trawlers - about a 1:2 ratio
Same faction, now 2400, though, the ratio again is different . 13 assorted formers and 9 seaformers, with 66 crawlers and 16 trawlers. About a 1:4 ratio
My most prolific crawler game - Hive, the move before Transcendance (so no crawlers cashed in yet) - 47 fusion fungi super formers and 9 sea formers, 288 assorted crawlers and 44 trawlers - about a 1:6 ratio
But a lot depends on what you want the formers for. I've cited before a classic PBEM game where big_canuck, as the Hive, had over 300 formers and constructed a fifteen or sixteen tile land bridge to an enemy's continent, complete with roads and magtubes running from his closest base right to the enemy's HQ - all in 1 turn!!!
A follow-up question would be, as reactors get more advanced and special abilities can be added on, how many get upgrades to fusion or better, and get fitted with armor, fungitanks and super status? And with that much invested in them, do players then support them with a best armor trance AAA scout wherever they go?
G.
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Enigma_Nova
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Rover formers are good for one thing.
Making roads appear out of nowhere.
If you have the WP and Super Formers,
Here's the time taken for ROLLING and FLAT tiles:
Road: 1 turn
Mag tube: 1 turn flat, 3 turns rolling
Raise terrain: 4 turns
So on average, it's 7 former turns per raised square.
With 1 rover former to make the initial road, the rest can be done by normal formers.
So, with (say) 210 formers you should be able to make a 30-square landbridge (provided you have the ECs to raise the bloody thing).
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johndmuller
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Capitol Hill, Colony of DC
Feb 2001
time: 00:36
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When I play the Hive, which is often, I usually start out with an average of 2 formers and 2 drone-control units per base, as soon as I can scrape up the ec's to run Police. I don't necessarily build them all at once, there are some CP's mixed in there for expansion too - maybe Former, Scout, CP. It more or less stays like that, plus or minus a few extra units for exploration and/or hunting native life (the bounty is an important suource of income) until IA comes along. At that point, the inner bases might get another former or two (especially if their own have migrated out toward the frontier), and maybe another drone-control unit, unless NonLethal has arrived (I try not to use more than 2 units per base as police until the mid-game).
I don't build fusion infantry formers (except by mistake), cause they cost more than fission ones, but a fusion rover former would be OK (Someone was lobbying recently on behalf of rover formers - and I have used them some more to reevaluate them - and it seems that they do save you a lot of turns, particularlly when you are doing the initial terraforming of an area, but otherwise too. I set it as a build when I was popping a pod in the very early game - where I didn't really want anything else i could have gotten for free - and when I got the free build, I found that the rover former was really quite nice to have at that stage of the game; still doesn't seem worth building though, even if it might actually be worth it.), and I am more than happy to save the money by building fusion seaformers.
I don' t generally upgrade plain vanilla formers for fungicide, but instead I would more likely build a few new ones where there was a need for that feature in particular spots. Later in the game, I might upgrade some formers to clean, when that becomes available, but mostlly to reduce the support cost at particularly min-strapped bases. I definitely build a lot of new formers when clean is available, primarily for BH's and the like. I would be much more likely to do an upgrade to super-clean, when that is available, as the double upgrade seems more worth it to me than would just the clean by itself.
Drop formers are useful to prepare an offshore island colony site and I really like Gravship formers' ability to terraform land or sea, but playing mostly PBEMs, I hardly ever get to that stage of the game...
I almost never armor my formers or use the trance ability, there're plenty more where they came from; if it were really necessary, I might send a guard detachment along with them for protection.
In general, I try not to fill up my design workshop slots with too many variations of formers and crawlers, but I sometimes start using Synth-Fusion Infantry crawlers since IIRC they don't cost any more than unarmored fusion ones but have a 4 times better defense. I try not to use up the slot with fusion rover crawlers, but sometimes it really has to get there overnight, and that opens the floodgates. OTOH, I usually ante up the extra DW slot to add the (free) Deep Radar to a Trawler design (I lie to myself that 'I'll upgrade those existing trawlers and get the slot back'). Drop crawlers are sometimes useful too, but I mostly use that to get crawlers to an SP-producing-base quicker.
Last edited by johndmuller on 29-05-2004 at 01:49
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Livid_Imp
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At least 2 formers per base for me, and don't shy away from former variants. Rover formers are worth it if you dedicate them to road construction. Two rover formers can move in, build a road on a rolling tile in one turn....or two flat tiles in the same time. This of course makes all of your formers and crawlers more efficient. I like to make a couple fungi formers also for pre-clearing large fungus patches for future city sites.
By the time fusion comes around, most of my core bases are pulling in enough mins that building fusion rover formers is no more time to build than equivient infantry formers. Building fission infantry formers is a waste of mins at that point.
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Commy
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St. Louis, MO, USA
Mar 2004
time: 05:36
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Okay, I build like one former per base at the most. First off, I play the Morgans, so with the population drawbacks there's no need to rush any terraforming, and I'm lazy, so I like doing as little as possible. I don't build sensors or bunkers or boreholes or condensors or any of that crap. I build my bases in really good spots, terraform a few forests, let them grow, hurry hybrid forests, and then all I have to do is build magtubes and monitor fungus pops. Very simple, just two improvements, mags and forests in each square. Usually, I just use the good old original formers until I get all the techs and if I'm in a good mood, I just might go to the workshop to build a gravship former with clean reactor and superformer abilities. It's magic,
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Velociryx
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of Candle'Bre
Apr 1999
time: 05:36
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SMAC is still on my hard drive...
I play with the Aldeberan mod, so no clean reactors or any of the other goodies that human players love...a much slower game with REALLY 'spensive SP's and stuff.
Early game mineral count per base, I like to target four, rush one former, a token scout to guard the base, and then however many formers I can squeeze out and still keep four mins for early infrastructure.
Two project bases (a min res on a rocky tile is ideal for this) that get to keep 100% of their industrial capacity.
Formers operate in teams...two are on new base site detail (see Googlie's post), the rest gang-forming a better road network, planting forests, making farms, or doing solar panels to eek out as much energy as possible in the early game. Reach nine bases pronto then stop expanding til I get the HGP done. Nine more bases right after it completes, cos the extra talent offsets the b-drones. Former guards are the free, no-support troops (scout and any rovers found in pods). Eventually, a random base near a min res starts churning out scouts to guard the formers and such, but it's not a priority, and the "GDI's" (my indie units) get upgraded to combat configurations and usually go off looking for trouble.
Aldeberan mod pushes the WP back to a midgame project, so there's no early game boreholing going on, and all basic terraforming is usually done on the continent pretty quickly....fine by me, and the formers are sacrified afterwardss to help speed build projects (aldeberan mod, blind research, can take 150+ years to get IA, so you gotta do what you gotta do). 'sides, I can rebuild the formers later when the advanced terraforming options become available.
Round three of expansion occurs after the VW completes, and again, b-drones are countered by free base facilities...at that point, it's getting close to time to rebuild the former fleet, and generally each base will get two, to speed thru borehole and condenser construction.
Because the flow of an Aldeberan mod game is so different, I never have much need for formers with specials, tho I still like canaries with teeth, so most of mine get rebuilt with armor and other defensive niceties (count as combat units, get morale upgrades...very handy, since I like to use formers offensively).
-=Vel=-
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Enigma_Nova
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10 per base.
I take it that's Growth per turn in Borehole Plonk Mode?
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Enigma_Nova
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Pop boom: Faction gains 1 extra worker per turn
Boreholes cost 24 former turns per hole.
Farm/Enrich/Condenser vs. Borehole,
You'd -need- that many formers to get the terrain done ahead of the pop boom.
So it's Growth per turn Borehole Plonk Mode.
That gives me an idea...
* Enigma_Nova goes off to CMN a custom alphax where all terraforming takes one turn, and nothing has prereqs
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smacksim
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Deputy Chairman of the Council of Lords of Gaia
Feb 2004
time: 00:36
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As many formers as I can bear!
Got to love them and hate them because turns take so long, but just peek over the AI's shoulder and feel proud former team, feel proud.
As to numbers, it's initial: former->defender->rec tanks
by the time I've got drone control, I've got EC's, so it's : rec tanks->former->defender
Rec tanks are gold.
Around the time the first crawlers are trudging to their destinations, I've got 1-2 formers at 9-15 bases.
Once the initial bases have some minerals, I'll have 2-5+ formers per base until Clean, at which point, they all get upgraded (cost ~ 1200 ECs) This is a big cost, so I plan all along for it. If I'm not going to make the cost of upgrading to Clean, I'll 1. stop making formers. 2. make more ECs!
After Clean, I'll average 7 or so formers per base, depending on if I'm expanding like mad or just building up to a boom.
The Planetary Transit System makes things interesting. I don't really pre-form for new bases in either case, just build roads to the general area, if they're lucky! I'd rather terraform inside a base radius where the productive tiles are immediately used. Anyways, my cure for the PTS 'Citizens at half your ****** bases are starving you moron!', is to send crawlers with, or just ahead of the sprawling Colony Pod army. 10 transports with a CP and crawler in each will just seal the fate of most AI.
And if you'd like to play the Aldebaran mod that Vel mentioned above, I'll be reposting it this week (here and/or at Googlie's site, and/or at my own sites). It DOES push crawlers back a bit, which cuts down on turn length, but those poor formers, who will buy their beer?
-Smack
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Blake
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Brainfallocatione
Oct 2000
time: 17:36
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As usual the answer depends, for a faction like Hive that needs LOTS of terraformers, I usually start with 2-3 per base, then more formers get built as more bases get built. I probably wont build more later on, starting with such a huge population. For none-hive I start with 1-2 per base, altough if I have no buildable infrastructure I'll start eating up the support on more formers - atleast if I can build boreholes/condensors/rivers/raise land (ie beelined eco.eng or have WP)
When playing crawerless (or with crawlers, for that matter) I devote 1 or more high mineral base (ie working a borehole) to pumping out a stream of formers. These bases pump formers until they get down to about 5 minerals (for nut special + 2 boreholes + rec tanks, thats 12 formers), then resume infrastructure development. Later on when I mass-upgrade to clean these bases get freed of their support burden and often become my frontier industrial powerhouses (like candidates to get a fun sphere and be devoted to military production)
Generally my former population caps at 40-90, a lot depends on how quickly I get super formers (which is usually a priority for me), like once I get super formers I tend to stop building many more. Also I tend to build lots more upon getting clean. Once mag-tubes arrive I like to attack, with land bridge/tube/l337 infantry, I rarely ever upgrade formers with defense, they'll die to air anyway. They also don't need armor to defend a base against worms.
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Santiago_Claus
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When I got to hab domes I had built 95 formers.
That's the benchmark: how many formers, not per base but just raw count, do you have by the time you reach certain technology milestones?
To start this exercise off I'll quote the first figure:
Upon discovering Super Tensile Solids (Hab Domes) I had 95 Super/Clean infantry formers and no other types.
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Santiago_Claus
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Smacksim, I think you've answered your own question already: the number of bases is a factor which clouds the real picture of the number of formers built and thus the terrain area / time the player is able to manipulate. A raw former count was my attempt to control for the variable of base spacing.
What I'm curious to know is "how much terraforming power do you give yourself in order to reach your goals?" "Terraforming power" is independent of number of bases, except to the degree that usable territory affects that number. (Base sites themselves are also a factor, if one views building a base as an act of terraforming.)
Map size and research parameters (stagnation, blind, or double-blind) do seem critically important, and I totally overlooked both.
I built my 95 formers on a large map, directed research, and my goal was Transcendence. I drew the line at Super Tensile Solids because the earlier a former is built the more valuable it will have been. It didn't occur to me that tech stagnation increases the value of formers built later in the game.
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28-05-2004 21:50
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