31-05-2004 00:51									#1
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Ok, I decided to take the plunge and see what all the excitement was about in Civ III.

Ok, ok, I know it's been out a while, and I am slow getting on board. I never tried any of the other Civ games, but I am familiar with Alpha Centauri. So I bought Civ III Gold Edition and the Conquests expansion pack. So I think I am up to speed. Only problem now is that I suck.

I am hoping that someone here can get me started in the right direction. I always play it on the easiest setting since I am so new at the game. I have only had it now for 3 or 4 days.

I have found some strategies and they are giving me some good ideas but I think they are still just a little to advanced for me. What I could really use is some basic strategies to get started. Also maybe a few pointers on selecting a good starting city site. Any insight at all will be helpful though, because I am so much in the dark.

I am however, to the designer's credit, having a good time getting my butt kicked. I would like to turn things around though. Thanks.

	31-05-2004 01:18									#2
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Tried the Tutorial mode? It's very basic.

	31-05-2004 01:39									#3
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Move up a level. Chieftain's really only good for getting the basic mechanics down. It sounds like you've started browsing the forum, but make sure and check out Theseus' Must-Read Threads post at the top of this board. Aside from that, post a 4000 BC save and a later save. There are plenty of experts here that will give you specific pointers, and possibly even play the game along with you.

	31-05-2004 02:14									#4
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The starting position is just a matter of seeing what you want to see after a few turns.

As you progress you will find a poor start can be a fun challenge. In the mean time, you want to have a lux some place close. I would say within 12 tiles. The higher the difficulty the more important that is to you.

Then I want to see a river to found my city next to, hopefully without moving much. The river means I can grow to size 12 without an aqueduct.

It is good to have a few bonus grassland tiles near the start point. You can then mine them to get the 2 food two shields.

A few tiles with forrest on them, so you can chop them to speed up granary and temple/barracks is sweet. The forrest tile will be used normally by the govenor to be worked by new citizen. This is a useful thing as you want those 2 shields.

One hill in the city radius to be mined later to get that wonder boost. Really sweet if it has iron, but it will be a while before you know that. If it has any resource on it, that is a big plus.

I would suggest doing what Solomwi mentioned. Post a 4000bc and maybe one for 80 to 100 turns later. This can be used to see if things are in order or not. If not, what needs to be addressed.

Most of the time it is not having enough workers and not using them optimally.

	31-05-2004 04:21									#5
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So, starting out, do I need to build workers to get things going or do I build settlers to found more cities?

	31-05-2004 05:23									#6
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That is a tricky question. So many things need to be factored in, but for a game below Monarch I would suggest using the location as the key.

IOW if you have lots of room and good lands to grab. I would be inclinded to do it the easy way and make a warrior and then if I had a wheat that could be irrigated, do that.

Once I had two warriors, then look at my tech. If I have pottery, make a granary, if not what is my timing for a settler?

Can I do one in 5 turns, or is it much longer? If longer, do a worker and get some tiles improved to crank out the settler in 5 or 6 turns.

At a level above monarch, I would probably not make two warriors first. I just want to get at least +4 food going, better yet +5. Now I can make settlers quickly.

	31-05-2004 05:28									#7
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Build a bunch of warriors (or scouts if you're expansionist) first and send them exploring. Build a new settler as soon as you can (the completion shield-wise is the same or later than the completion food-wise). Repeat this procedure with both cities. Leave the second wave of warriors around your home and let them hunt barbarians.

About workers: You start with one, let him improve 2-3 tiles around your capital. Don't irrigate grassland yet, it's mostly useless under despotism. Mine it, but irrigate plains and floodplains. Don't bother to improve desert, hills and mountains early on, it's not yet worth the effort. Build more workers as you found cities. Try to have about as much workers as cities. Protect them with units, if they're at your periphery, especially later when barbarians come mounted.

As soon as you have ~3-4 cities, build a small amount of archers (3-4 should do it) to fend off barbarians and AI civs who decide to attack you. Build more if you are going to attack.

Don't play Chieftain! It gets too many bonuses! Or else you learn bad habits (waste resources) and it will be hard to level up. Play Warlord as beginner. You still get some bonuses against the AI. Basically the AI is playing about Emperor against you.

	31-05-2004 06:57									#8
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A most important thing is:

Time the completion of the production of a settler or worker at the exact time the foodbox gets filled.

For instance, if you produce a settler one turn before the food box is filled then you waste 18 stored food for nothing.

It is all about not wasting any time or resources.

	31-05-2004 07:28									#9
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To be fair, I don't think there's anything wrong with playing at chieftain to figure out the game mechanics and to understand the game at the various stages in the tech ladder.

The most important thing is to have fun, and in my opinion, the first thing you should do is figure out what everything does and what options you have.

Once you've figured out the mechanics, then you can work out how to play better. There are many facets to civ3, from waging war to building to figuring out how to maintain decent foreign relations.

One last thing, the manual is particularly good. It leaves out alot of things, and also doesn't mention the patch fixes. Oh! go download the latest patch too. it's 1.22 now

	31-05-2004 07:45									#10
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Ok..Im a Noob 2 for CIVIII Conquests!

I read somewhere sometime back about the benefits of cutting trees down then replanting?

Is this possible and is it worth the time and efforts?

Thanks Grandpa "CTP-2-CIVIII:Conquests"Troll

	31-05-2004 08:18									#11
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IFC (infinite foresst chop) is not allowed any longer it was patched out very early.

You are allowed to chop and replant or plant and chop, but only the first chop get the 10 shields. Any furhter chops are just a waste of time.

So if you are playing an MP game, it will make sense to log the tiles you have chopped. In an SP game, it is rarely an issue. You may elect to chop a forrest on tundra and then replant, but other tiles are probably not worth replanting.

	31-05-2004 08:22									#12
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quote: Originally posted by vmxa1 IFC (infinite foresst chop) is not allowed any longer it was patched out very early. You are allowed to chop and replant or plant and chop, but only the first chop get the 10 shields. Any furhter chops are just a waste of time. So if you are playing an MP game, it will make sense to log the tiles you have chopped. In an SP game, it is rarely an issue. You may elect to chop a forrest on tundra and then replant, but other tiles are probably not worth replanting.

So what would you get the next time?

U stated 10 shields first go round...

-0- next?

Thanks for bearing with me!

GT

	31-05-2004 08:23									#13
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I think what Sir Ralph is poonting out is valid. You do not want to play more than one or two games on Chief as it will get you into bad abits.

You may as well jump to Warlord and learn to win there. It is not as if the AI will out play you there either, once you have the basics down. The AI is the same all the way down to Sid, the only thing that changes is the amount of bonus that is given and who gets it. So it is good not to get use to the bonus you get at chief.

	31-05-2004 08:30									#14
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quote: Originally posted by vmxa1 I think what Sir Ralph is poonting out is valid. You do not want to play more than one or two games on Chief as it will get you into bad abits. You may as well jump to Warlord and learn to win there. It is not as if the AI will out play you there either, once you have the basics down. The AI is the same all the way down to Sid, the only thing that changes is the amount of bonus that is given and who gets it. So it is good not to get use to the bonus you get at chief.

So moving up to the say 4th level (i dont have them memorized yet!)..chieftain 1 then warlord is 2..go m,aybe 2 more up..

The ai is not expotentially more aggressive?

I guess your just saying it has much more advantages like science rates?

Ok..Ill buy into that..not like it can follow me away from the keyboard and beat me down at i go to the garage..

Peace

GT

	31-05-2004 10:22									#15
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Yes like that, the ai behaves the same, but will get bonuses. I would not go beyond regent until I was winning regularly. The AI plays even up at Regent.

The other thing that will occur is you will see a change in the contented citizens.

It is 4 at chief, 3 at warlord and then 2 regent and monarch. After that it is one. This will be very punishing, if you have not mastered the game.

What it means is you must take care to keep you pop happy sooner. You have to hook up lux or use the slider or you get unhappy pop and nothing gets done.

If you are using the governor, it mean it will start putting people on entertaintment. This will wreck you production. These concerns are not a problem at warlord, but soon are very pronounced above monarch.

At monarch you will have a cost factor for research that will make you pay more than the AI. The break even is 10 (regent). When at chief it is 20, so you are getting a boost on science.
This means it will cost you more to learn new techs as you move up.

	31-05-2004 16:57									#16
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quote: Originally posted by vmxa1 Yes like that, the ai behaves the same, but will get bonuses. I would not go beyond regent until I was winning regularly. The AI plays even up at Regent. The other thing that will occur is you will see a change in the contented citizens. It is 4 at chief, 3 at warlord and then 2 regent and monarch. After that it is one. This will be very punishing, if you have not mastered the game. What it means is you must take care to keep you pop happy sooner. You have to hook up lux or use the slider or you get unhappy pop and nothing gets done. If you are using the governor, it mean it will start putting people on entertaintment. This will wreck you production. These concerns are not a problem at warlord, but soon are very pronounced above monarch. At monarch you will have a cost factor for research that will make you pay more than the AI. The break even is 10 (regent). When at chief it is 20, so you are getting a boost on science. This means it will cost you more to learn new techs as you move up.

THIS is great stuff to know!

I'll be a while prior to that advancement but thanks!

Peace

GT

	01-06-2004 02:09									#17
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Well, I thought I was finally getting the hang of it. No major problems for 5000 years. Just an ocassional squable with the Celts, but I finally got to where I was tough enough that they wouldn't declare war on me every time I said no to their demands. I was even tough enough that I could bully the Hittites and they would give me money.

Then about 1953, the bottom fell out. I said no to the Germans when they tried to extort money. They declared war. Then them and the English tried sanctions. Then it was the Germans and the French. Then the Gemans and the English declared war on me. Then the Germans and the Celts declared war. What I don't get, is that I thought me relationships with these civs was pretty good (well with everyone but the Germans). Next thing I know, I am fighting for my life against 2/3 of the world it seems. Even peaceloving Abe Lincoln was ticked at me apparently.

So I guess my next game I am going to have to post my starting moves and see where I am fouling up.

BTW, I like using the Egyptian civ. Are they a good civ to try and learn the game on? Or one of the bad ones. Scientifically speaking it seemed I was always way below everyone else.

	01-06-2004 03:12									#18
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Egyptians is an excellent civ.

I think it ranks among the top five amongst most, even veterans.

It also seems that the AI egyptian is always one of the strongests opponents.

If you have trouble in keeping up with science, try the Persians or the Ottomans. They are industrial and scientific, and have strong Unique units.

Last edited by Tripledoc on 01-06-2004 at 03:20

	01-06-2004 04:12									#19
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quote: Originally posted by I'mNowCivilized So I guess my next game I am going to have to post my starting moves and see where I am fouling up. BTW, I like using the Egyptian civ. Are they a good civ to try and learn the game on? Or one of the bad ones. Scientifically speaking it seemed I was always way below everyone else.

Well you have to recognize that when a civ declares war in the late game, it will try to recruit others to its cause. If they have decent relations with you that only means it will cost the AI more, but it will bribe them more often than not.

Also understand that when you are getting down to the short strokes, all civs will be wary of the leader and have to turn on you at some point.

Many techniques exist to thwart that endeavor, such as having deals where they are getting something from you that they would rather not give up. This can be a lux or gold. Resources are not as useful as they are not needed perpetually.

So you could do things such as borrow money from them and pay it back over 20 turns. This will make them like you and not want to declare on you and lose the income.

I would tend to use this only in deity or sid, but it can be done anytime.

Embargos are of little concern, if you are not trading with anyone, except it could be a prelude to war.

Germany is going to be belligerent and is best taken out before they get panzers, unless they are very far behind and are quite small.

Once you have been declared on, you should move immediately to get allies. Even if you don't need them and they will do little or no fighting on your behave. Just to prevent the other civ from getting them in against you.

I normally will join all civs in a war against my foe, it is just a precaution.

I was never a big fan of Cleo, but many are. I dislike the traits and loathe the ease of triggering a GA.
At lower levels you will get wonders and start the GA at the highest levels, you have the useless traits.

	01-06-2004 05:52									#20
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Thanks for your pointers and what not. They are really helping out alot. It seems to me that the game is a big balancing act more than anything. Learning what to do when.

For example, I did figure out how to make my scientists work harder, but it also seems like if you do it too soon your cities won't grow. If they don't grow, it's hard to get those settlers out there.

Probably, the player has to decide on a basic strategy. Do you want to wow them with military, with technology, or high culture. It's just a matter of what approach a person decides to take. I am realizing that this game is much more involved than Alpha Centauri. But I do miss the special project clips (I do seem to be in the minority there though). Maybe if the clips were included but optional. Speaking of projects and or wonders, in CIv III is there ever a way to push the wonders through faster? Or is it something that you can never do?

Back to the scientists, how big should you let a city get before you start making more scientists? Or is it better to have some cities focus on science, some on food, and some on building units?

Man, this game is so complex. There's obviously so many options available. Who can ever know what is the right way? Maybe Sid?

	01-06-2004 05:57									#21
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Actually, most of the Civ community misses wonder movies And what exactly do you mean by building scientists?

	01-06-2004 05:59									#22
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But yes, some cities should be focused on building Settlers and Workers. The city should have a high number of food per turn, so you can build the Settlers/Workers faster.

	01-06-2004 06:10									#23
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quote: Originally posted by Nuclear Master Actually, most of the Civ community misses wonder movies And what exactly do you mean by building scientists?

Well, technically, I guess you don't build them. You assign them on the city screen and the more you assign, the more income seems to go towards science.

Is there another way that I am missing, to have more effective scientists or quicker discoveries?

	01-06-2004 06:14									#24
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quote: Originally posted by I'mNowCivilized Speaking of projects and or wonders, in CIv III is there ever a way to push the wonders through faster? Or is it something that you can never do?

It depends on what version you are playing. In CivIII and Play The World military leaders can rush wonders. In Conquests they cannot, only Scientific leaders can.

Producing military leaders requires some tactical skil, and luck. The best method is to save elite units for sure victories. For instance, enemy units which are down to one hitpoint. Therefore having catapults stacked with elite units is a good idea.

Producing scientific leaders in Conquests requires that you are the very first of all civs to discover a tech. There is a 5 percent chance for scientific civs for each new first tech discovered and 3 percent for other civs. So luck is a factor here too.

There are two other methods.

1)If you need an early wonder, for instance the Pyramids or the Great library , then make a special "worker factory town", which produces workers who improve the terrain, and are then 'fed' into the wonder producing city. Then it grows quicker and is thus more productive. You will the have to apply the luxury slider, sacrificing on science progrees. Sometimes it is worth it.

2)If you have masonry and four cities, you can prebuild wonders without actually knowing the tech by producing a palace. When the wonder you need comes along, then simply switch from palace to the wonder. However, do not cut down any woods or disband units in the city, because then you can't make the switch.

A third option is simply to conquer the wonders from other civs. If the Pyramids or the Great library is nearby, that is certainly a good idea.

	01-06-2004 07:43									#25
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I'mNowCivilized, you can rush great wonders with a Science leader in C3C. Civ and PTW you can use the Leader. C3C has two types of leader, sci and military.

I do not use citizens as science special, unless it is a special case.

One is on a level such as Sid, I may go to no research and put one pop as a scientist.

If you are refering to the slider, then it is dependant. I tend to do either as much as I can afford or as little as I can.
Once I have to use 20-30% on lux, can't go above 60-70%, usually it is a bit less.

Last edited by vmxa1 on 02-06-2004 at 21:38

	01-06-2004 10:40									#26
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quote: Originally posted by I'mNowCivilized It seems to me that the game is a big balancing act more than anything. Learning what to do when. For example, I did figure out how to make my scientists work harder, but it also seems like if you do it too soon your cities won't grow. If they don't grow, it's hard to get those settlers out there. Back to the scientists, how big should you let a city get before you start making more scientists? Or is it better to have some cities focus on science, some on food, and some on building units?

You're absolutely right - it is a big balancing act. This is something that takes a while to get to grips with. When I started playing civ3, I was always trying to increase production to build all the goodies more quickly. However, I soon learned that growth is the key to success in this game.

Yes, you can allocate some of your citizens as Scientists, but as you've said this will hamper growth. Let your cities grow quickly, then manage the resultant unhappiness with the luxury slider until you connect up enough luxuries or build Temples/Cathedrals and Military Police to better manage happiness.

As long as you have all your worked tiles roaded, every time your cities grow you see a commerce increase, part of which you allocate to science and so your beaker count (science production) grows.

Granaries are also vitally important - at least for the first few cities - since they double the growth rate. This not only provides faster increases in commerce and science, but also gives you the ability to spit out settlers and workers more quickly, leading to increased growth rate. The shield investment for an early granary is almost always worth it.

I will generally only use scientists in highly corrupt cities. Because of corruption and waste, cities a long way from your capital will produce little usable commerce or shields, so population growth may not increase net science or shield production. In such cases, scientists can be useful as long as you have a sufficient food surplus to maintain them. In the same way, civil engineers once they are available are useful for building improvements in highly corrupt cities.

	02-06-2004 21:32									#27
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Well, I think I have the basics down. There is still some fine tuning to be done, but I am getting there.

There are also some things I wonder about, like is it worth it to go after the technologies that take longer to develop or is a civ better off to learn as many of the technologies that don't require alot of time before going after the ones that take longer?

I am also trying to figure out which default settings I like the best. I'd rather play a longer game. I know I can move it up to last 1000 turns, but I am trying to come up with other setting combos that will give me a longer game.

Finally, is there a way other than winning with unique units to trigger military golden ages? I am still messing around with the Egyptians, but as the game progresses it gets harder and harder to win victories with the War Chariots. The only solution I can think of is producing them en masse.

Last edited by I'mNowCivilized on 02-06-2004 at 22:58

	02-06-2004 21:49									#28
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You can trigger GA with wonders. The wonder or wonders need depends on the civ. Some like China and Egypt can do it with one specific wonder (IIRC).

Look at the pedia for the wonders and you will see "may trigger a GA for commercial" or "religious civs.

Otherwise, just use bombardment or a better unit to knock the hit points down to 1 and then use the UU to finish it off.

I can't say anything about making the game longer, that is not something I want.

The subject of tech choice is very complicated. What your goals are, what your current situation is and so many other things have to be considered.

In the main, I break it down to the game level and my strength.
If I am in a game that I can out research the AI, you can take either path.

If you are close (either ahead or behind) and do not have a need for a given tech you may elect to go for a tech that will be tradable.

If they are much better than you, find a tech you can get first. This often means going for the Phil free tech.

	11-06-2004 03:54									#29
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what happens if you get 2 GA's? eg 1 with UU and 1 with wonder?

	11-06-2004 04:16									#30
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You can only get one GA a game. Either it's through a UU, or through a wonder.