06-12-2000 21:40									#31
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

<center><table width=80%><tr><td><font color=000080 face="Verdana" size=2><font size="1">quote:
<img src=/forums/"/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1>
</font><font size=1>Originally posted by Legman on 12-06-2000 11:02 AM</font>

But the implications for further incidents where a poster (you?, me?)


<img src=/forums/"/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1></font></td></tr></table></center>

. No signigicant implications for me. My standards are self imposed and my ego more than self sufficient. The rest of the world is lucky that my standards tend to be socially responsible, such as respecting duly constituted authority and propety rights such as "he who pays the piper...". I am lucky to have a great opinion of myself conbined with srong independence from other control thus insulating me from outside "implications". MarkG's, DanQs', Lancer's, A H's, ore anyone else's here opinion of me is of very liitle weight to me. My judgement of how I deport myself with respect to them is of great importance to me. Any restriction of privilages would be of little note since I have more resources and communities than I have time or desire to use and interact with. I am very favored by the DICE GOD that my predilictions so well match my situation, and thus feel substantially immune to virtual "slings & arrows".
. As for thoses of you who are less invunerable or lucky, oh well.

------------------
Gaius Mucius Scaevola Sinistra
Pontificator Pendanticus
older richer & wiser than you

<font size=1 face=Arial color=444444>[This message has been edited by Lefty Scaevola (edited December 06, 2000).]</font>

	06-12-2000 21:46									#32
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Well, I wasn't being mature either. I want ppl to know that what I said about AH, well I really don't know or care one way or the other. What has bugged me in the past is being called names, (and on the internet that doesn't take alot of balls) and replying with quotes from AH for the most part. Well that built up and came out last night. I wanted AH to sleep on insults that he could not reply to man to man, simply because of the distance, show him how it feels. I don't like being called names AH, and now maybe you know why.

So I'm done calling names, I withdraw the insults I threw at AH last night, and I will voluntarily withdraw myself from posting for a week because I see clearly now where I could have been alot more mature.

Mark has judged well in my opinion. When I read Mings instructions to take it to PM, I did. AH put that PM in public, and so put everything back in the open. I did try, Mark is right. My decision regarding not posting has nothing to do with Mark's decision, it has to do w/ my desire to share w/ AH his week because I'm not pleased with myself, not because I feel that I broke a rule of Apolyton, more like a rule of personal decency.

I'd guess Mark would agree with me on that.

	07-12-2000 10:32									#33
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Ming,
Thanks for the extensive explanation - or should we call it attempted explanation of the mysterious ways in which Apolyton Justice functions!

I agree with the main part of your record of the cause of events - and how they might have been perceived by MarkG at the moment. However, the key to this is the intent that MarkG had when he made the call. And I for one don't doubt for one split second that he wanted to shut AH up because of the underlying issue - AH's continued expression of annoyance and discontent with the Karen Mills charity thingy. This is outrageous!

Now MarkG hasn't taken to explaining in what way AH overstepped any line that was drawn that Lancer didn't overstep too, so I'd still say an injustice has been done here - and that it will continue to be in the back head of posters in future situations where MarkG is ticked over some of the views expressed here on highly contested issues. That's no nice prospect to say the least.

Lancer,
I agree with most of your post and I understand how you must feel. What I don't agree with is your decision to refrain from posting for a week because you feel bad about what happened. That won't help! What would help however, I think, is if you'd agree with me that the decent thing to do here is to make an appeal to MarkG of reinstating AH and bringing his post count back to what it was. Justice would be served IMO, and it would also be an immensely nice gesture from you in view of the abuse and baiting you had to take in that cursed thread. Maybe a good way to getting back on speaking terms with AH?

	07-12-2000 10:40									#34
	Inflate your Upload Space

. While exploring PERCEPTIONS of bias here, perhaps Legman will illuminate waht residual grudge he may have because the Admins gaves his Location FAQ thread and proposal the cold shoulder. A good lawyer (jokes about this being a oxymoron have been beat to death) can find a suggestion of bias almost anywhere., even if not working for democ-rats or Resumlicans. Such perceptions should be carefully re-evaluted.

(now what about that post of Appolyton Attorney General I might be offered)

------------------
Gaius Mucius Scaevola Sinistra
Pontificator Pendanticus
older richer & wiser than you

<font size=1 face=Arial color=444444>[This message has been edited by Lefty Scaevola (edited December 06, 2000).]</font>

	07-12-2000 10:51									#35
	Put an end to popups!

I assure you Lefty, I'm on a totally different agenda here. Even though a bit more attention from the admins on that particular suggestion of mine would've been nice and heart warming, I did manage to get DanQ to post something that could very well be perceived as if he had no problems with me getting to work with the FAQ.

But still very observant of you, I must say. Now let's get back to the far more important issue of Apolyton Justice. I'd like to see some action taken, and this time some just action. Just for a change. Hey, a pun!

	07-12-2000 10:53									#36
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

<center><table width=80%><tr><td><font color=000080 face="Verdana" size=2><font size="1">quote:
<img src=/forums/"/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1>
</font><font size=1>Originally posted by Legman on 12-06-2000 12:32 PM</font>
However, the key to this is the intent that MarkG had when he made the call. And I for one don't doubt for one split second that he wanted to shut AH up because of the underlying issue - AH's continued expression of annoyance and discontent with the Karen Mills charity thingy. This is outrageous!

Now MarkG hasn't taken to explaining in what way AH overstepped any line that was drawn that Lancer didn't overstep too, so I'd still say an injustice has been done here - and that it will continue to be in the back head of posters in future situations where MarkG is ticked over some of the views expressed here on highly contested issues. That's no nice prospect to say the least.


<img src=/forums/"/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1></font></td></tr></table></center>

To your first point... No what is outrageous is that you are GUESSING on his intent, than making a judgement based on your own Guess... Not fair, or accurate

To your second point... you are using your bad "assumption" from your first point to slander MarkG in the second paragraph.

I probably would have restricted AH for throwing gasoline on the flame by Quoting a "Private" Message.
In my mind, that's where the line was crossed. So I will assume that that was the case for MarkG as well.

Granted my assumption is no better than yours... but based on my assumption, there is no injustice here what so ever.

So... my point you ask? Don't slander a person with your "made up" alligations. Why don't you hear his side before you assume the worst and describe him in the most negative light possible.

	06-12-2000 23:02									#37
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<center><table width=80%><tr><td><font color=000080 face="Verdana" size=2><font size="1">quote:
<img src=/forums/"/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1>
</font><font size=1>Originally posted by MarkG on 12-06-2000 08:10 AM</font>
btw, "mega" is smaller than "giga"....
<img src=/forums/"/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1></font></td></tr></table></center>

I know, (of course), but Horse has had the Troll and Giga-troll title.

The Mega-troll honor has yet to be awarded, and Tera-troll just doesn't have the same ring to it. It's really something I've been living for. Please. Pretty Please


<font size=1 face=Arial color=444444>[This message has been edited by MichaeltheGreat (edited December 06, 2000).]</font>

	06-12-2000 23:05									#38
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Fair enough Ming. Yes, it's an assumption of mine - albeit an assumption that's been implicitly there in most of my posts so far on this, without MarkG denying it directly before his disappearance earlier.

I'll stick with my assumption (which I'm sure I'm not the only one who's embracing), but I'll refrain from further 'slandering' until MarkG will hopefully address my concerns again.

I will say however that slander was not intended by me, I merely expressed the concern I had for future incidents, given my earlier assumption.

Sorry for any offense.

	06-12-2000 23:38									#39
	Put an end to popups!

<center><table width=80%><tr><td><font color=000080 face="Verdana" size=2><font size="1">quote:
<img src=/forums/"/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1>
</font><font size=1>Originally posted by Legman on 12-06-2000 01:05 PM</font>
Yes, it's an assumption of mine - albeit an assumption that's been implicitly there in most of my posts so far on this, without MarkG denying it directly before his disappearance earlier.

Sorry for any offense.
<img src=/forums/"/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1></font></td></tr></table></center>

No offensed taken by me Heck, for once, it isn't my moderating that's under fire

To answer your point about MarkG not denying it, He did answer and give his reasons already... I thought he was quite clear on answering why, when he posted:

"- they were asked to stop and take it to pm
- lancer stopped and messaged ah
- ah responded in public, quoting part of the private message

given that ah started and did most of the flaming in the first place, i fail to see how this is not fair..."

It follows the assumptions I made earlier. It wasn't personal, it was based on the above stated FACTS.
The only thing I "might" disagree with is the statement that AH did most of the flaming. They both did a good a job of the that

So I don't even see a reason for him to restate the obivious (especially since I just did it for him:0 )

	07-12-2000 00:18									#40
	Increase Your PM Length

I am surprised the thread wasn't locked when the order to take it up in PM's was given. Then if one of the two of them created a new thread to continue the flaming I could see how a banning was in order.

Although I don't agree with a punishment given to one but not the other, the reasons given were reasonable enough.

If anybody cares, I am not a big fan of the sticky threads either.

	07-12-2000 00:41									#41
	Full PM-box? Change here!

Ming,
The quote you gave from MarkG in your last post, doesn't even begin to adress the concerns I have for a miscarriage of justice here. They both displayed insults and mild flaming, and they both posted after they were told not to. So the question remains, what underlying reasons did MarkG have for punishing one clown and not the other?

But as we agreed on earlier, it's probably more appropriate to save the assumptions until MarkG will hopefully be back to explain - or reverse his decision, which I'm still hoping for!

In the meantime, speak up Apolytoners! Voice your opinion on this. Did MarkG meet the standard of impartialness that we could reasonably expect from the good people who built this site for us? Or did he show bias in applying one kind of justice to the troll and another to the good Samaritan?

	07-12-2000 01:02									#42
	Got spare money?

Oh, brother...this crap again.

I think it was biased myself...they were both acting like jerks, relatively speaking...so AH had the "last word"...I would think that threatening physical harm to someone would be at least as woeful, no matter what point it occurred in...they both should have gotten equal spankings or been left alone.
Mark is biased, Ming is biased...in the end, big deal...it's just the internet.
Stupid...the whole thing is stupid.
Welcome to the "real world" folks.
I'm ashamed of both of them...and I like them both, BTW. They are two very different people, but nice in their own way. They just need to grow up a bit.
Tune in next week...business as usual, I imagine.


------------------
Bring it!

"How ridiculous and how strange, to be surprised by anything that happens in life." Marcus Aurelius (Meditations)
Chief Revealer of Personal Foibles

	07-12-2000 01:56									#43
	Got spare money?

Legman,

Ming explained in an excellent way how my decision was made. He did that by reading what was posted by the two, and what I posted in the specific thread and in this thread. Since i doubt that he has any mind-reading powers, i fail to see how you can not come to the same result. the only "assumption" i can make is that you are the one with the bias, given that you agree with AH on the matters of the sticky threads and of threads about Karen

btw, i also fail to see how you expect me to deny that i'm totally unbiased. this would be ridicullous...

and something else: why on earth would i want to "shut up" AH? did i "shut him up" the last time that we had a whole thread in this forum(where it should be)?


Lancer,

thank you for your post and for your decision

<font size=1 face=Arial color=444444>[This message has been edited by MarkG (edited December 06, 2000).]</font>

	07-12-2000 02:02									#44
	Remove this text

Whoa....excuse the latecomer here but I want to just get something clear.

How much of a problem is that sticky thread? It's an ongoing sage that we're all familiar with, and it might just achieve a highly worthwhile result. What harm does it do having that there?

	07-12-2000 02:27									#45
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<center><table width=80%><tr><td><font color=000080 face="Verdana" size=2><font size="1">quote:
<img src=/forums/"/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1>
</font><font size=1>Originally posted by Lazarus & the Gimp on 12-06-2000 04:02 PM</font>
How much of a problem is that sticky thread? It's an ongoing sage that we're all familiar with, and it might just achieve a highly worthwhile result. What harm does it do having that there?
<img src=/forums/"/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1></font></td></tr></table></center>it goes against the rules of nature as AH understands them...

	07-12-2000 02:35									#46
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

RE: Lazerus about sticky Thread
. The spirit among posters tends to be very egalitarian and democratic and somewhat anarchistic. Many of them object to a thread )other than a reference thread like the Great Library, or an FAQ) being accorded privilaged status. They think it should rise and fall on its "merits" being how often serious post are made to it. Some even object to "bumps".
. For myself, I say the Admins are welcome (in addition to the obvious that its their right) to emphasise a thread, which emphasis itself is a communication about the feelings of the Admin.

------------------
Gaius Mucius Scaevola Sinistra
Pontificator Pendanticus
older richer & wiser than you
<font size=1 face=Arial color=444444>[This message has been edited by Lefty Scaevola (edited December 06, 2000).]</font>

	07-12-2000 02:39									#47
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So MarkG, I take it you don't agree with my view that

a) they both posted insults and mild flaming to virtually the same extent

b) they both posted to the thread after they were told not to

?

If you don't agree, then please tell me where AH's actions differed sufficiently from Lancer's actions for him to be restricted as the only one.

If you do agree, then what reasons did you have for banning AH?

If you answer this in an honest and non-manipulative way, I will assure you I will draw my own conclusions from your answer and not raise the matter any further, except for the option of one reply to your answer.

BTW, I don't think I'm biased on this matter - other than I was apparently the one outraged enough at your decision to start this thread inquiring why you did what you did.

Note also that almost everyone who posted to this thread share my view of you handing out punishment in an unjust fashion in this case. How can so many people with all the evidence readily available have the same - wrong - view of one man's decision? Isn't it more likely that you made a bad call - something nobody's gonna blame you for if you reverse your decision?

	07-12-2000 02:57									#48
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. I see another cold shoulder comming on here Legman. Get your sweater on!!

	07-12-2000 02:59									#49
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

<center><table width=80%><tr><td><font color=000080 face="Verdana" size=2><font size="1">quote:
<img src=/forums/"/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1>
</font><font size=1>Originally posted by Legman on 12-06-2000 04:39 PM</font>
So MarkG, I take it you don't agree with my view that
a) they both posted insults and mild flaming to virtually the same extent
b) they both posted to the thread after they were told not to

<img src=/forums/"/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1></font></td></tr></table></center>

Answer to A: Yes, they were both bad boys and engaged in mild flaming.
Answer to B: First, they were NEVER told to not POST to the thread. They were told to chill, and then continue their "discussion" by MP.

As I discribed before (please reread it again if something is still unclear to you), the posts immediately after the warning to chill and take it to PM were ignored because neither had seen the warnings yet. Once it was obvious that they both HAD seen the warning... then what happened?

Lancer posted that he had sent a PM to AH. Fine, a little testy in the nature of it, but it was to alert AH he had a PM on the subject.

AND NOW, ONE LAST TIME, AH then posted what was sent by PM "INCLUDING A QUOTE FROM LANCER" (a big break against the rules since he/they were told to take it to PM) This was like throwing gasoline on a fire that had been put out, in an attempt to start the fire all over again. FOR THAT, HE WAS RESTRICTED... THAT WAS THE STRAW THAT BROKE THE CAMEL'S BACK!

Lancer's next post was simply trying to end it. He told AH that he was done with the discussion, and that AH should think about what was said. Go back and read it.

There is a big difference in their actions AFTER they were aware of the warnings. Before than, Yeah, they were both bad! But the before has nothing to do with the restriction.

I hope this helps...

	07-12-2000 03:07									#50
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Speaking of straws: Pardon me Ming, but if that's the reasoning behind restricting only AH and not Lancer, that's the tiniest straw I've ever seen an admin or mod cling to when trying to justify a ban.

If MarkG posts once again that he agrees with your description of it, I'll know which one of my assumptions from before I'll go with. And it ain't pretty for the prospect of Apolyton Justice!

	07-12-2000 03:15									#51
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

<center><table width=80%><tr><td><font color=000080 face="Verdana" size=2><font size="1">quote:
<img src=/forums/"/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1>
</font><font size=1>Originally posted by Legman on 12-06-2000 05:07 PM</font>
And it ain't pretty for the prospect of Apolyton Justice!
<img src=/forums/"/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1></font></td></tr></table></center>

. You could pin your hope for impartial justice on the Florida Supreme Court.

------------------
Gaius Mucius Scaevola Sinistra
Pontificator Pendanticus
older richer & wiser than you

	07-12-2000 03:25									#52
	Inflate your Upload Space

Lefty Scaevola,
I'm sorry, I fail to see the humour in this. The course of events as Ming described them simply isn't enough to ban one poster and not the other. Something else is the real cause here, I know what it is, it's a profound disagreement on the whole charity deal. And I must admit that such actions from MarkG is nothing I can associate myself with. I feel the deep love and affection I've come to feel for this place dwindling away at an alarming speed.

	07-12-2000 03:42									#53
	Tired of ads?

. I trying to nudge you out of increasing OBSSESION with a minor issue. I feel MarkG & Ming have clearly explained the official position three times, and you just don't believe and agree with it. BUT there is NO remedy available for you, and pursing it is in vain. Back when I practiced law I had to advise clients commonly, Give It Up. No court is going to give you what you want, and the more your tye your ego to a losing fight, the more you lose. Even if an Admin were to pronounce "I don't like the way you use the subjuctive in Latin, A H, you are banned, it would be uniportant. This is a voluntary social association, buufered through a computor, enjoy what you like and ignore what you don'nt

------------------
Gaius Mucius Scaevola Sinistra
Pontificator Pendanticus
older richer & wiser than you

	07-12-2000 03:54									#54
	Full PM-box? Change here!

Lefty Scaevola,
I hear you. You make several valid points and I appreciate your taking the time to write it. I just can't believe that it's the way things are run here - I've been here for nearly two years and never before have i seen such hypocrisy. Pardon my French, but that's exactly what it is!

After having thought this over for the umteenth time, I've come to the conclusion that nothing MarkG could say or do will make me change my mind now. It's all too clear to me what went through his mind when he restricted the troll clown and let the Samaritan one go free.

I have nothing further to say here. I'm going to bed now. Don't hang around for any posts by Legman in the near future. And the Location FAQ is now a project of the past. If you have a problem with it, tell it to MarkG.

	07-12-2000 04:09									#55
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

Ming has used his incredible mind-reading powers to explain the situation once again...


<center><table width=80%><tr><td><font color=000080 face="Verdana" size=2><font size="1">quote:
<img src=/forums/"/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1>
</font><font size=1>Originally posted by Legman on 12-06-2000 05:07 PM</font>
that's the tiniest straw I've ever seen an admin or mod cling to when trying to justify a ban.
<img src=/forums/"/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1></font></td></tr></table></center>actually, it's a clear case of someone continuing to do something after being ordered not to. it has happened a gazillion times in the past

	07-12-2000 04:10									#56
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

For Legman:

. "Good night, sweet prince."

------------------
Gaius Mucius Scaevola Sinistra
Pontificator Pendanticus
older richer & wiser than you
<font size=1 face=Arial color=444444>[This message has been edited by Lefty Scaevola (edited December 06, 2000).]</font>

	07-12-2000 13:15									#57
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

I've got to say that I'm disgusted at hearing an issue being made about the Karen thread. For the sake of about 10mm of vertical screen space this is something that can have a dramatic beneficial effect on the life of someone who's had a rough ride. I can't believe anyone could get so anal about it.

If you do have an issue with the sticky thread- merry ****ing christmas to you too.

	08-12-2000 10:14									#58
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Legman,, as much as many will miss you, you don't have to post here. Do you agree with every decision you have ever had handed down your way? I doubt it, and to believe otherwise is foolish. I think your playing devils advocate here and really is it worth it. I don't see you standing up for all the others who have apparently been undone by Apolyton justice

Not trying to ruin your appeal here, but the wheels of justice have turned, and they have turned against you. Everything in life is a technicality however minor or extreme.

Perhaps MarkG agrees but doesn't want to give you the benefit of the doubt. Personally it's more enjoyable to see you all worked up

Regardless, i don't think this little issue is how we really look at how Apolyton is handled. Its a fine site and the decision could have been both , neither or one of them. MarkG chose one of them and listed his reasons for it. What i am having a hard time understanding is how you don't see his reasons MarkG's even thanked Lancer for his self imposed ban. Does this really have to be formal or do you want to hear Mark admit that he PM Lancer and told him to be out of action for a week or else!!!!! Wow, great thread though

	08-12-2000 10:52									#59
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<center><table width=80%><tr><td><font color=000080 face="Verdana" size=2><font size="1">quote:
<img src=/forums/"/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1>
</font><font size=1>Originally posted by Legman on 12-06-2000 05:54 PM</font>
I've been here for nearly two years and never before have i seen such hypocrisy.
<img src=/forums/"/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1></font></td></tr></table></center>Award to Legman for Apolyton Exaggeration of the Year!


<center><table width=80%><tr><td><font color=000080 face="Verdana" size=2><font size="1">quote:
<img src=/forums/"/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1>
</font>And the Location FAQ is now a project of the past.
<img src=/forums/"/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1></font></td></tr></table></center>Deja vu

	08-12-2000 12:17									#60
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

Lance is a great guy. AH is obnoxious. I can understand Mark's "bias". Although, I don't think he really was.

I agree with Lance that flaming and name calling on the internet is gutless.