03-06-2004 04:51									#61
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I agree on most. However:

quote: Originally posted by *End Is Forever* Now I've no doubt that there are moderates within the Muslim Association of Britain, but that doesn't distract from the fact that they're largely strictly small-c conservative Islamists who most left-wing groups would decry for their positions on abortion and women's rights amongst a host of others. There are also strong allegations of links of some of their senior members to the far more sinister Muslim Brotherhood, an Egyptian-originated fundamentalist sect.

I thought the Muslim Association of Britain was strongly against terrorism, etc, and had been criticised by the extremists for it? Unless the Muslim Council is not associated with the Muslim Association?

I agree George Galloway is someone out for himself, lacking in many principles, and also an extremist. I also agree some of their followers may be anti-semetic (much in the way many pro-Israel supporters are anti-Arab). However characterising the party as that, when it is clearly anti-Israel, not anti-semetic, in the most part, is a little far, IMHO. I'm anti-Israel, as are the majority of Britons, according to televised and newspaper polls I've seen when it was an major news issue. It doesn't mean we have anything against Jews, just against the way the way Israel is run.

Respect just seems be to a backlash against Bush and Blair, and will die down soon. I can't see them ever doing much. They might get some disaffected people voting, but they won't get any seats. People wanting to protest about the war are more likely to go Lib Dem, though these being local and Euro elections, I doubt many will vote purely on that.

	03-06-2004 04:54									#62
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I doubt many will vote

	03-06-2004 05:05									#63
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Drogue,

quote: Ok, I'll bite. Hypocritical on what issue?

Where to start?

GM Crops

LibDem Post Office Policy

"But we are increasingly coming to the view that a privatised Post Office – with a USO and a regulator – on Dutch lines could have a better chance of succeeding than the present structure" (page 16)

LibDems On Post Office "Modernisation" I
LibDems On Post Office "Modernisation" II
LibDems On Post Office "Modernisation" III
LibDems
On Post Office "Modernisation" IV

LibDems anti-war?

Newly unearthed extensive video evidence that I have received on my latest visit to the region shows collaboration between Saddam Hussein (on video) and a leader of an international terrorist organisation. Masoud Rajavi, leader of the MKO, is shown with Saddam Hussein discussing various actions locally, domestically and internationally. They are shown plotting and money being given in payment for services rendered and in payment for services to be rendered, which are discussed very explicitly. The evidence clearly shows international terrorist organisational work between Saddam Hussein and outside organisations. Another set of videos shows collaboration between international terrorist organisations and the head of the Iraq secret police. - Baroness Nicholson MEP

The myth of Mr Kennedy's opposition to the war

Funding:

Liberal Democrats claim that they're "not funded by big business": "The campaign of Michael Howard will, like that of the Conservative Party, be bankrolled by big business... The campaign to beat Michael Howard however does not rely donations from big business, but rather the support of members, supporters and individuals who know the impact that ousting Michael Howard at the next General Electino would make" (Help Beat Howard)

Reality: LibDems get funding from big businesses like McDonalds Hamburgers, Manchester Airport, Independent News & Media, Bloomberg UK, Robert Rhodes Ltd and Tesco. Look it up.

Need I carry on?

	03-06-2004 05:09									#64
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Drogue, you might want to read The Stop The War Coalition, the Muslim Assocation of Britain, and Anti-Semetism. It's written by an anti-war protestor who became disillusioned with the STW coalition, and not by the usual suspects. Take a browse around the site generally, it's excellent.

	03-06-2004 05:51									#65
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GM Crops
Answered in UKIP thread. Welcome to continue the discussion here, if you wish, to keep it to one thread.

LibDem Post Office Policy
Yep, so the Lib Dems see a regulated and privitised Post Office, as the best system. Take that as official policy.

LibDems On Post Office "Modernisation" I
About Lib Dem and Tory councillors campaigning against Labour's policy of Post Office closures, especially in Birmingham. Doesn't go against official policy. A different bias, sure, but then from an individual, not official Lib Dem policy.

LibDems On Post Office "Modernisation" II
Doesn't mention Lib Dems once. If you mean the MP mentioned happens to be a Lib Dem (which the article doesn't state. Is he?), then here's his quote:

quote: I naturally want to see all the post offices saved. But in several cases the postmasters want to quit because of falling business and the offer of compensation - and they can't be forced to stay open

Pretty much in line with party policy. Doesn't mention privitisation, but hints at it, at free market in action.

LibDems On Post Office "Modernisation" III
Lib Dems critising Labour closures, again.

LibDems
On Post Office "Modernisation" IV
More Lib Dems against Labour closures.

So, the Lib Dems are in favour of privitising and regulating the Post Office, against Labour's policy of closing 3000 Post Offices, but admit that if a postmaster wants to retire, they're not going to force them to stay open. Pretty balanced view, IMHO.

LibDems anti-war?

Newly unearthed extensive video evidence that I have received on my latest visit to the region shows collaboration between Saddam Hussein (on video) and a leader of an international terrorist organisation. Masoud Rajavi, leader of the MKO, is shown with Saddam Hussein discussing various actions locally, domestically and internationally. They are shown plotting and money being given in payment for services rendered and in payment for services to be rendered, which are discussed very explicitly. The evidence clearly shows international terrorist organisational work between Saddam Hussein and outside organisations. Another set of videos shows collaboration between international terrorist organisations and the head of the Iraq secret police. - Baroness Nicholson MEP
So a Lib Dem MEP admits that Saddam may have had some connections to terrorists in some states. I think we all knew that. I admit he probably did, I admit he was an appauling dictator. Doesn't mean I support a war for his removal though.

The myth of Mr Kennedy's opposition to the war

Ok, let me quote that article about Charles Kennedy:

quote: Charles Kennedy did not oppose the war - not even when he addressed the anti-war rally in Hyde Park in February 2003. He spoke of "real concerns" and the "powerlessness" of "vast numbers of people" to whom Tony Blair "must listen". But he didn't say, as the Green MEP Caroline Lucas said at the same rally, that the war would be illegal, unjust and counter-productive. Indeed Kennedy said on the party website at the time: "We are not the all-out anti-war party. I believe that the United Nations is the proper place to make the decisions."

Wow, so he didn't directly state, like the French position, that war would be bad in any event. He stated that he wanted the UN to decide, and that there was "no compelling argument [for war] at the present time." Just because he has a more balanced view that some extreme anti-war protestors, does not mean he is not anti-war. He wanted the UN to decide, as he continually says.

As the article says, the Lib Dems voted against the war. However, once we went to war, they admitted that pulling troops out immediately wasn't an option. Once in, even though they didn't want us to be, we now had a responsibility and needed to see it through. Sure, a raving Greenie like the writer of the article won't think they go far enough, but I agree completely with their position:
1 - The war was a bad idea.
2 - With UN backing and proof of Iraq's weapons (legitimacy) there would be a compelling case for war.
3 - Once we're in, we have a responsibility to see our commitments through.

quote: Funding: Liberal Democrats claim that they're "not funded by big business": "The campaign of Michael Howard will, like that of the Conservative Party, be bankrolled by big business... The campaign to beat Michael Howard however does not rely donations from big business, but rather the support of members, supporters and individuals who know the impact that ousting Michael Howard at the next General Electino would make" (Help Beat Howard) Reality: LibDems get funding from big businesses like McDonalds Hamburgers, Manchester Airport, Independent News & Media, Bloomberg UK, Robert Rhodes Ltd and Tesco. Look it up.

Ok, a small, local Lib Dem campaign says it's not supported by big business, unlike Michael Howard's campaign. The Lib Dems, as every party, have donations from business. Can you see the distinction? The "campaign to beat Michael Howard" is not funded by big business. The Lib Dems nationally are, in part. A smaller part than the Tories, too.

Moreover, look down that list. Look at the big amounts, those donations over £10,000. What do you notice? All but one or two are from individuals, and those from companies are non that I recognise as large companies. Sure, Tesco gave them just over £1000. A tiny percent. Most of their money seems to come from individuals. Therefore, the Lib Dem campaign "does not rely donations from big business", even though it gets a few small donations from them.

So there we have it. None of those involve hypocracy. Sure, the party speaks with different voices, it has many different members, and that's to be expected. At least they don't try to force vote like the Tories to try to cover their differing views on some issues. However hypocrites, they are not.

	03-06-2004 06:06									#66
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Not British, BNP!

	03-06-2004 06:09									#67
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quote: Ok, a small, local Lib Dem campaign says it's not supported by big business, unlike Michael Howard's campaign

I think you'll find that any anti-Howard campaign, especially one like that, finds sanction from the very top...

	03-06-2004 06:17									#68
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Whether or not they find support from the top, their funding, as they stated, is not big business. Also, looking at Tory support, they have a £1 million, and many above £10,000, from companies. The Lib Dems don't. So even if that comment were about the overall Lib Dem campaign, which it isn't, it would be partly right. They don't rely in big business for support, Tories do. I don't see why that's such a bad thing, but that is the case. Whether or not it has sanction at the top (which I'm sure it does), the overall Lib Dem campaign wasn't what that statement was about.

I'm surprised he's staying there for the next elections. Removing him isn't the hugest of tasks either, given the relative marginality of the seat. It would hurt the Tories dearly to lose him, possibly even to 3rd party status.

	03-06-2004 06:22									#69
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There's no chance of Howard losing in Hythe. Since Howard became leader there have been two council by-elections in Shepway, both in Howard's constituency, both Tory gains from Liberal Democrats with gigantic swings. Even weak party leaders have seen their majorities improved (Hague's went up in 2001 notably, Major's bucked the trend in 1997, look at Ashdown's majority in Yeovil over the course of his Parliamentary career...). "Howard might lose" makes good PR for the LibDems, but it isn't going to happen.

Imagine the publicity for us if our leader decided to chicken-run, anyway!

	03-06-2004 06:32									#70
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True. It is very unlikely. Would make good publicity, but he's a good politician, and someone who can banter with Blair at PMQs, so it's good TV too. Oh well, we should still make some good gains in the Euro elections, and maybe a council gain or two

Looks like this poll is turning overwhelmingly yellow too

	03-06-2004 06:32									#71
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I am British but I am not voting (because they won't let me )

	03-06-2004 06:35									#72
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Why won't they let you?

	03-06-2004 06:38									#73
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I just moved and I didn't have time to get registered. (I would have voted Lim Dem though.)

	03-06-2004 06:39									#74
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quote: Originally posted by Drogue Oh well, we should still make some good gains in the Euro elections, and maybe a council gain or two

It would be difficult for the LibDems not to make gains at least in terms of vote share this time, your result in 1999 for derisory, far worse than I thought it'd been.

	03-06-2004 06:39									#75
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quote: Originally posted by Rogan Josh I just moved and I didn't have time to get registered. (I would have voted Lim Dem though.)

You should be registered at your old address, then...?

	03-06-2004 06:43									#76
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quote: Originally posted by *End Is Forever* You should be registered at your old address, then...?

yes.... in France....

	03-06-2004 06:44									#77
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Ah.

	03-06-2004 11:08									#78
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Shame on the BBC! They've left out The Official Monster Raving Loony Party.

My only quibble is that their slogan, "Vote for insanity, you know it makes sense!", fails to distinguish them from any other British party.

	03-06-2004 13:37									#79
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If the Lib Dems wern't so slavishly pro european I might vote for them, I'm actuallt tempted to vote for UKIP because i'm annoyed at them being labelled fanatics and loonies for having what is a perfectly respectable policy. You have every right to diagree with it but really the issues should be debated rather than the labelling that is going on. If the BNP looked like winning where I live i would vote for whoever could beat them.

	03-06-2004 14:08									#80
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Tory criticizes Lib Dems for hypocricy.

Lib Dems are kicking arse here.

	03-06-2004 14:10									#81
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I am not voting at all because I got back from living abroad (ie not in the UK!) just too late to make the registration deadline for the election in my new neighbourhood. I could go and vote in my old neighbourhood, but that is outside London so not voting for mayor.

	03-06-2004 15:14									#82
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quote: Originally posted by TheStinger If the Lib Dems wern't so slavishly pro european I might vote for them, I'm actuallt tempted to vote for UKIP because i'm annoyed at them being labelled fanatics and loonies for having what is a perfectly respectable policy. You have every right to diagree with it but really the issues should be debated rather than the labelling that is going on. If the BNP looked like winning where I live i would vote for whoever could beat them.

Heh, I think the Lib Dems still aren't pro European enough SNP has an almost decent standpoint if i remember correctly and they haven't changed in the last few years. But then I consider myself European first, Dutch second and hope that my lifetime will bring a federal state of self governing regions encapsulated by pan-European policies on such things as trade, defense and foreign affairs. Which is I know is so far out of the British Euro spectrum that not a single party even comes close.

	03-06-2004 15:38									#83
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quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark This one looks cool: quote: ENGLISH DEMOCRATS PARTY

The only bit about them I even remotely agree with is devolution to England and that's only because I want the current half-arsed devolution to be sorted out.

	03-06-2004 17:21									#84
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quote: Originally posted by *End Is Forever* Interesting... which way around in the Assembly elections, and why? What constituency are you in? Why Norris over Hughes?

Bromley and Bexley. Will vote Tory as main representative as they are more likely to gain the seat than the Lib Dem candidate. Will vote Lib Dem as part of the secondary members as my vote will still count towards something.

Voting Norris over Hughes... urm could vote the other way, its a decision made because it has to be. If its transferable vote (I think it is?) I may vote Hughes and have Norris as the transfer vote, more worthwhile than doing it in reverse.

	03-06-2004 18:46									#85
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quote: Lib Dems are kicking arse here.

Yeah, but this forum isn't Britain .

	03-06-2004 18:48									#86
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It bloody is!

I put the flag on this forum first, and because it's our flag, then it's our country! What's wrong? Too slow to plant your flag?

	03-06-2004 18:52									#87
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quote: I put the flag on this forum first

*looks at duke o'york's flag*

You claimed this forum in the name of the EU?

Besides, I think there have been people here before October of 2001.

	03-06-2004 18:56									#88
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But they didn't bring flags with them did they?

Been round to look at the server recently? You'll notice a giant union flag there.

	03-06-2004 19:11									#89
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IIRC, Markos put a Greek flag down in the beginning . There were flags well before you were a twinkle in this forum's eye, boy .

	03-06-2004 19:24									#90
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Well he can't have put it down properly.

How do you think that the otherwise rubbish British managed to hold such a large empire? Good quality flags. Turn up somewhere, plant your flag. If no-one else has a flag, it's yours. You've now got an empire.
Go on Imran, try it on your neighbour.

Thanks to Eddie Izzard for this gag, of which I am now tired.