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Drachen
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Well...uh...I voted for Sid, but I use a map generator for all my Sid starts and they're all well above average. If I were to just set the game to random settings and accept whatever start showed up then I think I’d get my head handed to me most of the time.
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Drachen
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quote:
Originally posted by Aqualung71
And with these doctored maps you win at Sid most of the time? |
Hey Aqualung 71;
Nice avatar. As I recently posted I do not feel my starts are doctored since I do not edit the rules, but I have been using the map generator to assure me of a settler pump in my Capital and that is allowed under HOF rules. If anyone would like to discuss the validity of those rules then feel free to say so and we can have that discussion. The areas beyond the starts are not always that great either. In my current English game I had a number of cows near my capital but a lot of plains beyond that, a smallish island, and my iron depleted shortly after chivalry…I think I’m going to win it.
So, in answer to your question…yes…I am finally at a point where I expect to win at Sid somewhat regularly if I can start on a decent island by myself on a large 80% water archipelago map. Starts like these are not uncommon although it is a limited subset of the possible C3C games. I have lost a boatload of Sid games getting to this point and so I can’t claim to have a winning average but in going forward from this point the method is pretty cookbook in nature and I think a lot of us could beat Sid by following a similar path. From what I can see, I would expect Aeson, Vmxa1, nbarclay, Mountain Sage, and others to win these games regularly if they chose to slog it out and I’d be glad to post some starts if anybody’s interested in checking it out for themselves.
Last edited by Drachen on 17-06-2004 at 21:55
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Dominae
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I think the point of the poll is to know which difficulty level people beat all other factors being equal (i.e. random). I'm sure Monarch-level players (the majority) could beat Demigod games with the right start. This poll has nothing to do with HOF rules.
Not that I'm trying to downplay your achievements with Sid. But saying that you beat it regularly in this poll is highly misleading.
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Drachen
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quote:
Originally posted by Dominae
I think the point of the poll is to know which difficulty level people beat all other factors being equal (i.e. random). I'm sure Monarch-level players (the majority) could beat Demigod games with the right start. This poll has nothing to do with HOF rules.
Not that I'm trying to downplay your achievements with Sid. But saying that you beat it regularly in this poll is highly misleading. |
Hey Dominae;
Thanks for your input. I have a lot of respect for the work you've done with Civ but in this instance I don't believe I'm persuaded by your arguments yet. The original poll question was “what level is the highest you can win most of the time?” If poll questions such as these are generally understood to be referring to random games then I confess my ignorance of that convention and apologize.
As to the specifics of my original post I stated “If I were to just set the game to random settings and accept whatever start showed up then I think I’d get my head handed to me most of the time.” I tried to be clear about what I was saying and I’m not sure how I could have made it clearer. Why do you consider this to be highly misleading?
HOF rules have a lot to do with the question of whether my Sid wins are “valid.” I was hoping to avoid just this scenario by adopting these rules for my game play. There was an extended discussion of the matter in the Viceroys Sid thread and I came away feeling that using HOF rules gave the best chance of posting games that would not be controversial. You are more experienced than I in these matters and perhaps you’re aware of a convention that is more commonly accepted at Apolyton. I’d love to hear about it if there is.
P.S. I think it was Theseus or Arrian who once posted that “your avatar freaked them out” I have to agree. It’s like reading the comics after a couple of hours in an Amsterdam café but then, I always liked Amsterdam as well.
Last edited by Drachen on 23-06-2004 at 11:06
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Dominae
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I'm perfectly happy with your post and the defense of your position. Again, I'm impressed that you've found even a subset of games that you can beat regularly on Sid (I, for one, need the editor!).
What I am taking issue with is your "Sid" vote in the poll. It's misleading because, as far as I know (both here on Apolyton and generally) it's conventional not to answer question by throwing in too many of one's own assumptions/biases (at least knowingly). Your "bias" (if I can call it that) here is that a normal game for you involves setting up a near-perfect or highly-above-average starting position. Although I believe there is a tendency for players to restart until they get something passable-to-good, I imagine this is nothing close to how you play (for instance, restarting until you get an decent-sized island to yourself, etc.).
Thus, others will look at your vote and conclude that some player out there beats Sid more than half the time under normal (normal for the casual player) circumstances, which includes a wide spectrum of starting locations, land forms, resource distributions, etc.
This is related to the amazement that newer players have when they hear it's possible to win the game with only one city (OCC). What they're not aware of is that this feat requires very particular conditions.
Good luck to you in mastering Sid. 
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Drachen
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quote:
Originally posted by Dominae
What I am taking issue with is your "Sid" vote in the poll. It's misleading because, as far as I know (both here on Apolyton and generally) it's conventional not to answer question by throwing in too many of one's own assumptions/biases (at least knowingly). Your "bias" (if I can call it that) here is that a normal game for you involves setting up a near-perfect or highly-above-average starting position. Although I believe there is a tendency for players to restart until they get something passable-to-good, I imagine this is nothing close to how you play (for instance, restarting until you get an decent-sized island to yourself, etc.). Thus, others will look at your vote and conclude that some player out there beats Sid more than half the time under normal (normal for the casual player) circumstances, which includes a wide spectrum of starting locations, land forms, resource distributions, etc.
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Hey Dominae;
Once again you make a considered and considerate post. I find your argument about the poll to be persuasive. When I cast my vote I intended that poll readers should read my comments and caveats. You quite correctly point out that not everyone will do that and might find the vote misleading as a result. This was not my intent and I would withdraw my vote if I could. Since I cannot, I will switch my focus to making it true. My Viking game had a very good start but quite by accident as I found it while setting up my initial parameters. That is win number one. We will ignore my Swiss and English games since they were map generator starts. I’m willing to try playing random starts at least in as much as the starting position is concerned. I am still not persuaded that land size, map type, rivals, etc must be random and if they must be, then as already stated I don’t think I’m good enough to win those regularly. I would instead opt for large archipelago maps, 80% water, sedentary barbs, 8 rivals, standard rules, standard aggression, and tribe of choice. If I am able to win over half of my games using the stated conditions would you find that persuasive?
Would anybody find that persuasive? The Sid threads have been some of the most widely read threads on Apolyton. There was an extensive discussion of what constitutes a legitimate game and while I cannot claim that a widespread consensus was reached I did post my intention to use HOF rules in my Sid attempts. I respectfully submit that objections at that point would have been timely but that objections which come after months of effort have an almost Catch 22 flavor. I have no wish to thread jack and so may I suggest that if a wider discussion of acceptable rules for Sid needs to take place that interested parties begin posting on the matter? If anyone was confused by my vote I wish to apologize and wish you well in future games.
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Drachen
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quote:
Originally posted by Arnelos
It sounds to me like what Drachen does is still highly impressive - he can win consistently on Sid, massively reworked starting location or not.
That said, concerning the intent of the poll:
Drachen, what level do you think you could consistently win on if you were using only random maps and stock rules (allow a few reloads in the event of terrible maps... so assume at least an average or garden variety starting loc)? |
Hey Arnelos;
Thanks for your kind words. At this point I must admit to being a one trick pony in that I have learned to survive, thrive, and conquer if I get a decent island start at Sid. In my initial attempts at Sid I was using accelerated production (AP) and felt that AP wasn’t an advantage or disadvantage for either the AI or me. Aeson disagreed and pointed out some things to me. After a bit of testing I adopted his position that AP benefits the human and began using default rules in my Sid games. The trouble is that I had been using AP almost exclusively ever since the feature was introduced. With those settings I can’t recall ever having lost an Emperor game but it doesn’t matter since I wasn’t using standard rules. The picture is further clouded by the fact that there are tribes I’ve never played such as the Zulu. I have no idea if I could win a random deity game if I were dealt the Zulu card. This random start stuff is just not something I’ve tried. Sorry I don’t have a more definitive answer to your question.
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Drachen
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Please forgive the multiple posts but I thought a screenshot of my English island might be of use in seeing just how selective my starts have been. My start was upper left near the cattle.
 Attachment: english.jpg
This has been downloaded 114 time(s).
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bob rulz
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Well, everyone welcome the new user, this is my first post (just registered a few minutes ago).
First, what is an HOF game?
I can beat the game on Warlord only. When I started playing the game I completely ignored the manual and the civilopedia (idiot me!) and I didn't even know the importance of a mine early in my playing of Civ3. I made the jump to Warlord early (before I knew most the game mechanics). I hae Chieftain down and I could probably beat warlord next game if I get a good starting position.I mostly have problems with diplomacy/trade/science/income stuff. I've been needing a few tips on this.
If its appropriate in this forum...if anyone has an account on civfanatics I would like to ask a question (will only ask if appropriate for this forum). I think that having an account on both websites would help me improve my skills two-fold, but I ran into some problems that the FAQ didn't answer. Anyway, ya, I can (barely)win on Warlord...
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17-06-2004 10:51
Besides, as long as I have fun...
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