10-06-2004 23:30									#31
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi And what if they like baking? How so?

Playing devil's Advocate I hope.

No they do not like baking, and the school will discipline them if they don't. Their families are too poor and stupid to sue the district.

According to the (ADA) American Disabilities Act, people can't be discriminated (ie treated differently) do to their their disabilites (challenges). So if they want to force baking they should do it on the entire school.

Ideally they should just have the cheerleaders do it.

	10-06-2004 23:30									#32
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wow this thread has been ruined thanks to EVC...

i see getting rid of sports as a risk that may pay off good dividends. it is possible that eliminating sports will give students more time to study and do work and re-direct their hopes for the future to the academic rather than athletic. I think Japher knows it would be problematic for the first few years because changing children's mindsets to study rather than do the fun thing that could possibly get you far (sports) is a hard thing to do. I dont think it'll work for that simple reason. kids are going to want to play sports no matter what. let them play sports. most end up being disciplined because of it.

also why the low performance for blacks and hispanics as compared to whites and asians? all stats are from the philly public school system with resources distributed equally (actually no, low performing schools get more money). why do blacks and hispanics do so badly?

one could argue asians tend to have better home situations which statistically probably is true as divorce rates, teen pregnancy etc. among asians is very low even in urban areas. the same can not be said about whites, however.

so what are whites and asians doing right that hispanics and blacks are not?

	10-06-2004 23:32									#33
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quote: Originally posted by Albert Speer wow this thread has been ruined thanks to EVC...

How's it ruined Speer, said something you don't agree with did I?

	10-06-2004 23:35									#34
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One of the fundamental ideological flaws with NO CHILD, is that it penalizes schools that need support in order to improve. How is a school or district supposed to improve if funding and other help is restricted because of testing? It is counter-intuitive and counter-productive. Failing schools need more resources to improve.

The logic behind this "accountability" in No Child is comparable to starving sick patients and feeding healthy ones.

We should focus on improving failing schools... not punishing them. No Child doesn't address improving schools.

Perhaps we shouldn't accept programs from a President, who as governor, ran a state where education became worse during his reign. It's just a suggestion... but I think we should accept education reform from people who have success to their credit... not failure.

	10-06-2004 23:37									#35
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Verto:

coaches getting paid 80K? greyhound buses? meal at a restaurant?

what the hell school district is this?

in philly, most coaches are also teachers and they coach different sports during the off-seasons. my school's boys volleyball team coach also coached the boys soccer team and taught gym and health class... my school's boys bball coach taught history.

and sports players take yellow buses to events or even public transit in the case of the track team.

	10-06-2004 23:40									#36
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Sava:

Corrective Action 2 (which the average stats for philly means the whole city failed and has to have corrective action 2) results in the firing of principals, administrators, a new curriculum, and possible privatization.

i dont see anything about loss in funding.

	10-06-2004 23:43									#37
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quote: Originally posted by Verto No, get rid of school sports programs for every district in the country.

How the hell does the federal government get to tell the counties to remove school sports?

quote: Taxpayers should not support a bloated mini-NFL.

Let them say that at the county level, then.

The federal government should NOT get involved in education except maybe where such intervention is absolutely necessary. People somehow miss that there are good public school districts out there, and that sweeping declarations from Washington can do harm as well as good. I would be pissed as hell if my school became worse because the government decided to apply something across the board.

	10-06-2004 23:52									#38
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quote: Originally posted by Albert Speer i dont see anything about loss in funding.

Sorry, I was referring to the NO CHILD program at large... not this specific instance. The witholding of funds is a serious issue regarding No Child. Many states are currently suing the federal government because of this. My statements were regarding the general program, not just Philly. Sorry for the confusion.

	10-06-2004 23:58									#39
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quote: No they do not like baking, and the school will discipline them if they don't. Their families are too poor and stupid to sue the district. According to the (ADA) American Disabilities Act, people can't be discriminated (ie treated differently) do to their their disabilites (challenges). So if they want to force baking they should do it on the entire school.

Sounds like enough material for a thread.

Sorry Albert.

	11-06-2004 00:14									#40
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quote: Originally posted by Albert Speer Verto: coaches getting paid 80K? greyhound buses? meal at a restaurant? what the hell school district is this? in philly, most coaches are also teachers and they coach different sports during the off-seasons. my school's boys volleyball team coach also coached the boys soccer team and taught gym and health class... my school's boys bball coach taught history. and sports players take yellow buses to events or even public transit in the case of the track team.

Yes, the coaches here also double as "teachers". Totally inept ones, though.

	11-06-2004 00:19									#41
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quote: Originally posted by Kucinich quote: Originally posted by Verto No, get rid of school sports programs for every district in the country. How the hell does the federal government get to tell the counties to remove school sports?

If school districts have enough money to spend on ridiculous athletic programs, then they obviously do not need as much state and federal funding. The US public school system should be completely devoted to education, esp. when we are constantly hearing about how underfunded it is. The solution is to strip off the activities that provide nothing of value. Just imagine how much money is wasted boosting "school spirit".

	11-06-2004 00:23									#42
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quote: If school districts have enough money to spend on ridiculous athletic programs, then they obviously do not need as much state and federal funding.

They shouldn't get it in the first place, if you're going to apply thinking like this. The federal gov should just cut taxes so that the local gov can increase them and get the revenue in the first place. As it is, it's an IMO unconstitutional ploy to gain control of state and local governmnets.

	11-06-2004 00:31									#43
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quote: Originally posted by Verto If school districts have enough money to spend on ridiculous athletic programs, then they obviously do not need as much state and federal funding. The US public school system should be completely devoted to education, esp. when we are constantly hearing about how underfunded it is. The solution is to strip off the activities that provide nothing of value. Just imagine how much money is wasted boosting "school spirit".

But educational programs that are hollistic in nature are more effective than simply turning schools into knowledge factories. Schools aren't meant to just be knowledge factories. They aren't meant to educate, but also teach good life habits. Especially now since two working parents is common, promoting physical fitness (among the other benefits of sports) and other positive things are certainly part of the schooling process.

I'm surprised to hear this from a Texan, consider high school football is such a big part of Texan high school culture.

	11-06-2004 01:08									#44
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1. Get rid of students who don't want to be there. Sounds harsh, but you can't force someone to get an education and if you try it brings down the quality of education for those who do wish to learn.

2. Get rid of all non-academic programs in school. Valuable time that could be spent on true learning should *not* be spent on sports, carpentry, dance, etc...

3. Increase the level of all material taught. The American educatin system teaches woefully little, and I can hardly believe any student could get les than a B+ in this system. It's time to teach more to make a more educated populace.

4. Introduce more social science courses. Americans are woefully stupid when it comes to politics, philosophy, etc. Its time to teach them to think for themselves.

5. Give the damn teachers a raise. ITs capitalist, but it'll work: Present teachers will work harder and more teachers will come.



Sava: No, schools are there too teach, not to become parents away from home. If parents are too inept or uncaring to teach those things themselves, they shouldn't be parents

	11-06-2004 01:10									#45
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quote: Originally posted by Sava But educational programs that are hollistic in nature are more effective than simply turning schools into knowledge factories. Schools aren't meant to just be knowledge factories. They aren't meant to educate, but also teach good life habits. Especially now since two working parents is common, promoting physical fitness (among the other benefits of sports) and other positive things are certainly part of the schooling process. I'm surprised to hear this from a Texan, consider high school football is such a big part of Texan high school culture.

1.) I did not propose completely eliminating all athletics/PE classes. Physical activities are crucial. But there is a line that has been crossed when you look at how much influence and how much time/money is devoted to the athletic programs.

2.) I am ashamed of the emphasis placed on football in Texas public schools.

	11-06-2004 01:11									#46
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quote: Sava: No, schools are there too teach, not to become parents away from home. If parents are too inept or uncaring to teach those things themselves, they shouldn't be parents

It's not about being parents... at my highschool, we had 1 period of PE as well as a 1 or 2 periods of electives. School would definitely have been more boring and less of a learning environment if it were all lame classes instead of some electives and PE. Why are you agreeing with the right on this one Tass? The Putin would cry.

	11-06-2004 01:12									#47
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quote: I am ashamed of the emphasis placed on football in Texas public schools.

TRAITOR! PREPARE FOR RE-EDUCATION!

	11-06-2004 01:13									#48
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Sava: "Lame classes"? Under my plan, you'd be one of the people thrown out for not wanting to learn I don't propose universal education: Only education to those who want it.

	11-06-2004 01:14									#49
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quote: Originally posted by Sava It's not about being parents... at my highschool, we had 1 period of PE as well as a 1 or 2 periods of electives. School would definitely have been more boring and less of a learning environment if it were all lame classes instead of some electives and PE. Why are you agreeing with the right on this one Tass? The Putin would cry.

Imagine how much more fulfilling those classes could have been, if they'd received a portion of the money spent on athletics.

	11-06-2004 01:14									#50
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quote: Only education to those who want it.

then you'd have no students...

That's why you don't give people choices like that... with choices like that, nobody would be paying taxes and nobody would pay for anything. Kids don't have rights. They can drop out when they are 18. THEY ARE SLAVES UNTIL THEN!

	11-06-2004 01:15									#51
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1. Athletics classes aren't working.

2. They suck up money.

3. They don't teach anything.

Thus, they would be no more if I were universal dictator

	11-06-2004 01:15									#52
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quote: Originally posted by Verto Imagine how much more fulfilling those classes could have been, if they'd received a portion of the money spent on athletics.

Oh I agree with you there... we had to have stupid assemblies for football when I was at school. It was a wasted period. So I ditched.

	11-06-2004 01:17									#53
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quote: Originally posted by Comrade Tassadar 1. Athletics classes aren't working. 2. They suck up money. 3. They don't teach anything. Thus, they would be no more if I were universal dictator

and your people would all die of coronaries in their 30's... it would be the Union of Obese Socialist Republics.

	11-06-2004 01:17									#54
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quote: Originally posted by Sava then you'd have no students...

In America, this might actually be true. But I'm sure a few might stick around

quote: That's why you don't give people choices like that... with choices like that, nobody would be paying taxes and nobody would pay for anything. Kids don't have rights. They can drop out when they are 18. THEY ARE SLAVES UNTIL THEN!

No. You see, because if all those who didn't even want to learn weren't there, the quality of education could go up enormously. The classes taught would be more advanced, there would be more being taught, and there wouldn't be so much deadwood in it.
Those in the education system would be able to get more out of it

	11-06-2004 01:19									#55
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quote: and your people would all die of coronaries in their 30's... it would be the Union of Obese Socialist Republics.

Perhaps in the US. However, fitness is a large part of other cultures.
Again: I'm not going to be their parents for them. If a teacher wishes to incorperate physical fitness into their education, they must do it in such a way that the student still learns academically at near-full efficency versus sitting down and learning.
Beyond that, however, its up to the parents to stress it and the students to do it.

	11-06-2004 01:20									#56
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quote: No. You see, because if all those who didn't even want to learn weren't there, the quality of education could go up enormously. The classes taught would be more advanced, there would be more being taught, and there wouldn't be so much deadwood in it. Those in the education system would be able to get more out of it

yeah and if we exterminated all the starving people in the world, there'd be more food for the rest of us...

	11-06-2004 01:22									#57
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quote: 2. Get rid of all non-academic programs in school. Valuable time that could be spent on true learning should *not* be spent on sports, carpentry, dance, etc...

they're kids though! they want to have some fun. sports, carpentry, etc. socializes children... gives them respect for authourity and disciplines them and it's fun. children have more reason to go to school if they're going to have a fun class.

quote: 4. Introduce more social science courses. Americans are woefully stupid when it comes to politics, philosophy, etc. Its time to teach them to think for themselves.

nah social science is incredibly useless in the real world. we want them to be good and skilled workers, right? things like history are just interests.

	11-06-2004 01:25									#58
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quote: yeah and if we exterminated all the starving people in the world, there'd be more food for the rest of us...

Food is required to physically survive.
Education is not.

quote: they're kids though! they want to have some fun.

It won't be completly boring, but the state will not impose "fun" on the students.

quote: gives them respect for authourity and disciplines them and it's fun.

If a child chooses to stay within the education system, it is likely they have learned these things already

quote: nah social science is incredibly useless in the real world

Even if this were so, is still promotes independant thought and intellecutal development.

	11-06-2004 01:25									#59
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quote: they're kids though! they want to have some fun. sports, carpentry, etc. socializes children... gives them respect for authourity and disciplines them and it's fun. children have more reason to go to school if they're going to have a fun class.

Yup.

Speer's spot on here.

	11-06-2004 01:26									#60
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Yeah Tass... SPeer is making sense... that means you are wrong.