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Albert Speer
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Puerile Polemic
Mar 1999
time: 00:36
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and dont forget me disagreeing with you Tass...
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Kuciwalker
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of Schmooism
Feb 2001
time: 00:36
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quote:
Originally posted by Comrade Tassadar
1. Get rid of students who don't want to be there. Sounds harsh, but you can't force someone to get an education and if you try it brings down the quality of education for those who do wish to learn. |
Don't get rid of them, seperate them out. Or rather, take the talented ones and put them in gifted programs.
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2. Get rid of all non-academic programs in school. Valuable time that could be spent on true learning should *not* be spent on sports, carpentry, dance, etc... |
It doesn't happen during school (except for PE, which does not appear to be the main thing you're attacking). It happens after school. Certainly, I could be spending some of my time at home studying. So? Are you advocating having children spend every single possible moment in school?
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3. Increase the level of all material taught. The American educatin system teaches woefully little, and I can hardly believe any student could get les than a B+ in this system. It's time to teach more to make a more educated populace. |
Rather, have multiple levels of advancement, so people can go at different paces. It's useless to try and teach someone faster than they can learn, and not-as-useful to teach them slower.
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4. Introduce more social science courses. Americans are woefully stupid when it comes to politics, philosophy, etc. Its time to teach them to think for themselves. |
Woefully stupid compared to whom? The really smart people? Duh.
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5. Give the damn teachers a raise. ITs capitalist, but it'll work: Present teachers will work harder and more teachers will come. |
Glad to see you advocating capitalism, Comrade 
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Ben Kenobi
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McGregornobi!
Oct 2002
time: 21:36
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quote:
Don't get rid of them, seperate them out. Or rather, take the talented ones and put them in gifted programs.
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Skywalker:
Several problems with this approach. First of all, if you want to stream, when will you do so? Secondly, in high school people may think they know what they want to do, but they don't really.
In this instance, streaming is something done to kids, in putting them away in the 'stupid' class, and the kids know this. The same with the 'smart' kids, when the reality may be very different.
I think that the kids should be kept together, and to raise the quality of the teaching for everyone. For example, you can have a harder stream (as I did,) but make it clear that the work will be harder and the only rewards will be a better education, not other side perks. By making it voluntary, and open to all the students, then you get a much better draw, and you avoid the problems associated with non-voluntary streaming.
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Rather, have multiple levels of advancement, so people can go at different paces. It's useless to try and teach someone faster than they can learn, and not-as-useful to teach them slower.
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Agreed, to a point. It has to be voluntary so that folks who may not have been 'labelled' smart get the option to try the quicker class, and see if things work out. And vice-versa.
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Woefully stupid compared to whom? The really smart people? Duh.
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I agree. We should have at least 1 class in philosophy mandatory to students, just to teach people how to construct a valid argument, and to pick out logical fallacies. This is not that hard, nor should it be boring. All you need to do is to throw out a topic for debate, and encourage every student to participate. I guarantee they would learn more than by rote memorisation.
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Kuciwalker
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of Schmooism
Feb 2001
time: 00:36
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quote:
Originally posted by Ben Kenobi
Several problems with this approach. First of all, if you want to stream, when will you do so? Secondly, in high school people may think they know what they want to do, but they don't really. |
What does this have to do with gifted programs? And I'll let you know, in Northern Virginia the gifted program goes all the way back to third or fourth grade IIRC (I moved here, and they even have another level where you get bused to a center (which is usually part of a regular school too) starting in fifth, though mostly it happens in Junior High (seventh and eighth). Then all high schools are normal (though with honors classes), but we have an uber-school "Thomas Jefferson High School for Science and Technology" that takes only 400 a year and has a lot of extra stuff. I go there; we're considered geeks who program our calculators in our spare time (not a completely inaccurate analysis  ). Anyway, Northern VA also has the best public education system in the country.
And in high school, I can tell you kids are definately capable of deciding what they want to study.
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In this instance, streaming is something done to kids, in putting them away in the 'stupid' class, and the kids know this. The same with the 'smart' kids, when the reality may be very different. |
You don't have a stupid class (besides people with genuine disabilities), you just have extra levels for smart people to climb too.
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I think that the kids should be kept together, and to raise the quality of the teaching for everyone. For example, you can have a harder stream (as I did,) but make it clear that the work will be harder and the only rewards will be a better education, not other side perks. |
What other side perks?
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By making it voluntary, |
It already is.
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and open to all the students, |
It already is, if you're smart enough to get in.
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then you get a much better draw, and you avoid the problems associated with non-voluntary streaming. |
Not by letting anyone in who wants to. TJ is good, not really because of the facility (in fact, our building is pretty old), but because of the students. It would completely destroy the effectiveness of the school to let just anyone in.
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I agree. We should have at least 1 class in philosophy mandatory to students, just to teach people how to construct a valid argument, and to pick out logical fallacies. |
You need a whole class for this? It's pretty easy to cover this through Geometry (proofs) and history/civics courses.
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This is not that hard, nor should it be boring. All you need to do is to throw out a topic for debate, and encourage every student to participate. |
We already do that, in English and History.
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Ben Kenobi
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McGregornobi!
Oct 2002
time: 21:36
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quote:
we're considered geeks who program our calculators in our spare time (not a completely inaccurate analysis ).
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I did exactly the same thing.
We programmed our calculators so that they would do our provincial exams for us.
I took the IB program, as a diploma candidate, so I'm quite pleased with the curriculum, even as I lack the experience of a 'normal' public school.
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You don't have a stupid class (besides people with genuine disabilities), you just have extra levels for smart people to climb too.
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Invariably the lowest level become the "stupid" level, and the kids know this. The better teachers try to teach the better students, and the ones who are left teach the regular classes.
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And in high school, I can tell you kids are definately capable of deciding what they want to study.
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There is a big difference in choosing a subject, and choosing a vocation. Many streams, at least in Europe, funnel students into a technical course, on the thought that they would not be going to university.
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What other side perks?
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Generally to get students to do harder work, requires some kind of program integration, the carrot with the stick. Things like not having to do stupid HS degree requirements, but rather, having to write a long paper, and to do 150 of community work.
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Not by letting anyone in who wants to. TJ is good, not really because of the facility (in fact, our building is pretty old), but because of the students. It would completely destroy the effectiveness of the school to let just anyone in.
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They said the same about our program. Instead, within the first month, they cull the classes.
Very similar to a university program in this regard, except you know the teachers care about you.
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You need a whole class for this? It's pretty easy to cover this through Geometry (proofs) and history/civics courses.
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I had a whole class on this, in addition to a History course in my curriculum. One of the most useful classes.
I suppose you could lump this in with English and History, but to have a separate class gives you more freedom in the topics to discuss.
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Comrade Tassadar
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quote:
Don't get rid of them, seperate them out. Or rather, take the talented ones and put them in gifted programs. |
That works to an extent, however the ones who don't want to be there are still sucking up a ton of money.
If they dont want to be there, then dont have them there. Let those who want to be there get the best education they can, and not be dragged down by those who dont want to.
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It doesn't happen during school (except for PE, which does not appear to be the main thing you're attacking). It happens after school. Certainly, I could be spending some of my time at home studying. So? Are you advocating having children spend every single possible moment in school? |
Hmm...I was under the impression that these things go on during school.
If they go on after school, then I am fine with them.
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Rather, have multiple levels of advancement, |
Of course, but increase the bare minimum.
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Woefully stupid compared to whom? The really smart people? Duh. |
I'm sorry  I realise this is still a sensitive issue amongst many Americans. But realise this - until you admit you have a problem, its never going to get cured.
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Unless you can seriously contend that things like swimming and track aren't "useful". |
They aren't quite as useful when it comes to academics as academic classes are
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a) Americans are "stupid" |
Your right, I'm sorry. I should say ignorant instead.
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our education system is somehow "nonfunctional". |
Its not that its nonfunctional. Its functional. But it teaches very little, it takes a long while to teach it, and its infested with problems from top to bottom.
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The simple fact is that people today in any developed nation are vastly more aware of the rest of the world than at any other point in history. |
True, but the standards are a *little* higher now than since the beginning of time
Nice try though 
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Anything that hasn't changed is simple human nature, and it's useless to whine about it and stupid to attribute it to Americans specifically. |
No, I don't attribute it to any genetic factors in Americans. Instead, I attribute it to the great wealth America has achieved and to cultural factors within American society.
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Kuciwalker
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of Schmooism
Feb 2001
time: 00:36
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quote:
Originally posted by Ben Kenobi
I did exactly the same thing.
We programmed our calculators so that they would do our provincial exams for us. |
We write games 
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Invariably the lowest level become the "stupid" level, and the kids know this. The better teachers try to teach the better students, and the ones who are left teach the regular classes. |
Uh, yeah, that's the idea. You teach
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There is a big difference in choosing a subject, and choosing a vocation. Many streams, at least in Europe, funnel students into a technical course, on the thought that they would not be going to university. |
That's not how it works here. AFAIK technical schools aren't really a big thing - a lot of it is about getting to college (or which college, among those for whom getting into college is a given). Those who try and get into specific colleges based on what areas of study it's strong in are already qualified to plan their vocation to at least a limited extent IMO.
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Generally to get students to do harder work, requires some kind of program integration, the carrot with the stick. Things like not having to do stupid HS degree requirements, but rather, having to write a long paper, and to do 150 of community work. |
That's in no way a perk... and in no way should "community work" qualify one for a high school diploma. And wrt a paper, certainly that's a good thing (my school requires that one do a college-level research project in one of various labs for the TJ diploma), but of course you should have to take those courses as well.
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They said the same about our program. Instead, within the first month, they cull the classes. |
You mean your system wasn't voluntary?
Anyway, TJ is an effective school because of the students there. Obviously, then, it would no longer be NEARLY as effective if you let ANY students in.
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I had a whole class on this, in addition to a History course in my curriculum. One of the most useful classes. |
Whatever. I think it can be handled by debates on current events, etc in Civics classes.
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I suppose you could lump this in with English and History, but to have a separate class gives you more freedom in the topics to discuss. |
Not really, as the material is mostly (or should be mostly) related to actual information you're learning. Two birds with one stone - you learn about interpretation of various themes in the Aeneid (for example), and you learn effective techniques for discussion.
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Kuciwalker
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of Schmooism
Feb 2001
time: 00:36
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quote:
That works to an extent, however the ones who don't want to be there are still sucking up a ton of money.
If they dont want to be there, then dont have them there. Let those who want to be there get the best education they can, and not be dragged down by those who dont want to. |
You don't force someone into a gifted program, quite obviously. And the other students should at least get an education... your ideas will only create the problem you say exists now.
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Hmm...I was under the impression that these things go on during school.
If they go on after school, then I am fine with them. |
How would extra-curriculars go on during school?
Actually, my school is an exception to this: our "eight period" is divided into two 45-minute blocks during which we can sign up for various student- or school-organized clubs (like Math team or War Games club, plus study halls and computer labs), though sports are still after-school. However, you have a very difficult time making the case that my school is ineffective
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Of course, but increase the bare minimum. |
It has been increasing, continuously.
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I'm sorry I realise this is still a sensitive issue amongst many Americans. But realise this - until you admit you have a problem, its never going to get cured. |
This is why you always think you're sick...
There isn't anything to cure (at least not on the fundamental level). The citizens of every developed country are better educated and informed than at any prior point in history. What's your basis for comparison, to call them ignorant or stupid?
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They aren't quite as useful when it comes to academics as academic classes are |
You don't think encouraging people to excell in something doesn't help their academics? Also, people in swimming and track often have much higher GPA's than those who aren't - because the sport attracts those of greater intellect.
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Your right, I'm sorry. I should say ignorant instead. |
If you're describing yourself, then yes. I've been in a nice range of different public and private schools, so I'd say I have actual knowledge of the subject. OTOH, you seem to be basing everything on groundless, unsupported assumptions.
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Its not that its nonfunctional. Its functional. But it teaches very little, it takes a long while to teach it, and its infested with problems from top to bottom. |
Compared to what?
There was a time when taking Geometry in high school was very advanced, and a basis for going to college. Now, it isn't all that uncommon to take it in tenth grade at the latest. I took it in seventh. And, especially for mathematics, it will keep going down.
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True, but the standards are a *little* higher now than since the beginning of time
Nice try though |
What standards are those based on? The intellectual elite?
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Space05us
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The only kids that do good in school are the ones with a long ass attention span and a good trainer.
The ones who do bad in school arent necessarily stupid, the things they're being tested on just arent the things they are good at. I know a lot of kids up here who couldnt get an C on a test if they had the best tutor in the world but they can pull apart any machine you stick in front of them, let it sit for a week, and put it back together like they never left it. Or you can give them a car and tell them to fix it, come back the next day and *poof* its fixed.
And of course there are other kids, like me, who just dont know yet, they need direction and nothing is providing that for them. They're intellegent, they can learn anything in the world, but they dont care. So they fail, drop out, or just get by passing, they live life day in and day out hoping that one day some magical fairy will pop by and say "this is your mission in life".
The only thing wrong with the public school system as it is is that it is mandatory, and constrained. The only classes that should be required are up to Geometry and Sophmore level English. Everything else should be Elective, and attendence shouldnt be kept.
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Japher
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Ook! Ook! Ack! Ack! Ack!
Jun 2002
time: 05:36
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The ones who do bad in school arent necessarily stupid, the things they're being tested on just arent the things they are good at. |
That's a great statement
My father is on the school board for the school district that I went to school at (thankfully he got elected after I had already left). And, while he hasn't gotten the best of criticizm for what he and his fellow board members have done to the school system, it is still one of the best in the state if not the country. It is one of those school districts that increases the price of housing around it.
Since he has joined they have built 2 new HS, 2 new Junior HS, and I have no idea how many elementaries. The teachers are not union, and don't wish to be, and the passing rate of students is fairly high. Not to mention, that some of the lowest income housing of all of Fresno resides within that school district.
Anyway, one of the schools and programs they have set up is a vocational school where the kids can go to school for half the day and then go to work for the other half for credit, as half the kids have to work to support their lazy families. The school is also good for kids who are not interested in learning the normal stuff that is taught in HS but would rather learn automotive, construction, artistry, etc... The school hasn't been around for long, but the kids are much happier in the environment that this school presents as it allows them to be in their own element. Classes are losely scheduled and teach them the things they want to learn. The students still are required to take those things required by the state and their passing rating has been much higher than that of philly. Most of these kids will graduate with not only a HS degree but an AA as well, and while most end up joining the workforce right after HS some of have changed their minds since entering the school and have gone on to college, mostly in engineering.
I think what Space said is quite enlightening. We have magnet schools for the smart/gifted, for the arts, for the athletics... why not for vocations, or for those things that interest kids... At least it would give the 'normal' kids a way to feel special, and IMO that is the problem; a mentality that says I am average, and the average is so low I can stop trying now.
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Kuciwalker
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of Schmooism
Feb 2001
time: 00:36
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quote:
Originally posted by Space05us
The only kids that do good in school are the ones with a long ass attention span and a good trainer. |
Wrong. I'm ADD and I learned/still learn fine, under good and bad teachers.
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The ones who do bad in school arent necessarily stupid, the things they're being tested on just arent the things they are good at. I know a lot of kids up here who couldnt get an C on a test if they had the best tutor in the world but they can pull apart any machine you stick in front of them, let it sit for a week, and put it back together like they never left it. Or you can give them a car and tell them to fix it, come back the next day and *poof* its fixed. |
Which is why there are technical schools, and preprofessional courses in HS.
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And of course there are other kids, like me, who just dont know yet, they need direction and nothing is providing that for them. They're intellegent, they can learn anything in the world, but they dont care. |
Direction exactly how?
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So they fail, drop out, or just get by passing, they live life day in and day out hoping that one day some magical fairy will pop by and say "this is your mission in life". |
That sounds a lot more like just general apathy than anything connecting to education.
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The only thing wrong with the public school system as it is is that it is mandatory, and constrained. The only classes that should be required are up to Geometry and Sophmore level English. |
Geometry?!
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Everything else should be Elective, and attendence shouldnt be kept. |
Of course attendence should be kept. The point of having school in the first place is for you to be there.
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Comrade Tassadar
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You don't force someone into a gifted program, quite obviously. And the other students should at least get an education... your ideas will only create the problem you say exists now. |
A basic education. Learning the very basics. Beyond that, when you start getting into more advanced knowldege, you shouldn't force them at all for they only create problems.
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It has been increasing, continuously. |
Then not fast enough. It should increase at a faster pace.
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The citizens of every developed country are better educated and informed than at any prior point in history. |
Of course they are.
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What's your basis for comparison, to call them ignorant or stupid? |
Based on what many other nations in the world are achieving.
The citizens of Congo are more informed of what goes on than pre-historic man. *It hardly means that they are geniuses*
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You don't think encouraging people to excell in something doesn't help their academics? |
I never said that. However, which do *you* think would help advance anyones knowledge of physics more:
A swimming class, or a physics class?
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I've been in a nice range of different public and private schools, so I'd say I have actual knowledge of the subject. |
I can't say I've been in them, but I've observed. What your schools pass for a "challenge" is quite laughable.
I dunno...I suppose since I've seen better education systems that produce better educated people, I've come to expect the same quality of education in the *richest nation on Earth*.
Perhaps my expectations are too high.
Compared to other natinos, compared to the ideal.
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What standards are those based on? The intellectual elite? |
Hardly. Though it would seem as such to Americans.
I do not see why you continue to deny the problem. Your education system is functional, but its failing your children. Perhaps your one of the lucky few. However most Americans I've encountered do not seem as educated as nationals from other nations.
And as long as you continue to wave your flag and pretend like there couldn't even be a problem, it'll continue to exist.
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They're intellegent, they can learn anything in the world, but they dont care. |
See, thats a tragedy. What we should do, instead of focusing on those who are not intelligent to make them average when they do not even want as such, we should be attempting to harness the potential in intelligent people.
A lot of problems would disappear if children were not complacent. If they realised that education could give them a great life.
However they do not, especially in America with its wealth and power.
Parents are also a big problem in that they don't care...Do you wonder why Asians tend to do very well on whatever tests that are adminsitered when hispanics fail them? Because in Asian households, intelligence is stressed *immensly*. This is another central problem I see in America - Intelligence is not stressed, and in some cases it is looked down on as being a negative trait. *Of course* your going to get stupid people if they think that intelligence is a bad thing to have. This is logical enough.
Even children with average or below average intelligence could easily learn if intelligence were stressed and their parents got involved. Involved in their education (postively, not negatively), involved in EC activities, involved with the teachers, etc....In America it seems that the "family" has so many problems with it. In many cases family has disappeared in America.
I'm done
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Kuciwalker
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of Schmooism
Feb 2001
time: 00:36
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quote:
Originally posted by Comrade Tassadar
A basic education. Learning the very basics. Beyond that, when you start getting into more advanced knowldege, you shouldn't force them at all for they only create problems. |
We don't. People are generally required to take math up to about Algebra 2 or Precalculus (my school requires Calculus, at a minimum), a science most years, and history and english courses each year. How much more basic can you get?
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Then not fast enough. It should increase at a faster pace. |
It increases as quickly as there are enough students to support the faster curriculum.
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Based on what many other nations in the world are achieving. |
Ah, so you do think that Americans are less informed... do you have ANY evidence to back that up? Maybe test scores differ slightly, but given that we're still the world leader in scientific research certainly says something about the utility of those.
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I never said that. However, which do *you* think would help advance anyones knowledge of physics more:
A swimming class, or a physics class? |
Swimming isn't a "class", it's a "sport". You sign up for it after school.
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I can't say I've been in them, but I've observed. What your schools pass for a "challenge" is quite laughable.
I dunno...I suppose since I've seen better education systems that produce better educated people, I've come to expect the same quality of education in the *richest nation on Earth*. |
You've observed... Utah? Through your kids? Because any of your experiences in school are a totally moot point.
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Compared to other natinos, |
Can you provide any evidence besides test scores, which, as I've mentioned, are worthless?
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compared to the ideal. |
There is no ideal - that would imply some sort of cap.
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What standards are those based on? The intellectual elite? |
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Hardly. Though it would seem as such to Americans. |
 more america-bashing from someone who has essentially ZERO personal knowledge of the system
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I do not see why you continue to deny the problem. Your education system is functional, but its failing your children. Perhaps your one of the lucky few. However most Americans I've encountered do not seem as educated as nationals from other nations. |
Anecdotal, subjective evidence that's highly likely to be heavily skewed and further compounded by the simple fact that you remember things better that reinforce your preconceptions?
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And as long as you continue to wave your flag and pretend like there couldn't even be a problem, it'll continue to exist. |
What flag have I been waving?
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See, thats a tragedy. What we should do, instead of focusing on those who are not intelligent to make them average when they do not even want as such, we should be attempting to harness the potential in intelligent people. |
We do.
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A lot of problems would disappear if children were not complacent. If they realised that education could give them a great life.
However they do not, especially in America with its wealth and power. |
Given the emphasis placed on getting into college, I'd say you're dead wrong.
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Parents are also a big problem in that they don't care...Do you wonder why Asians tend to do very well on whatever tests that are adminsitered when hispanics fail them? Because in Asian households, intelligence is stressed *immensly*. |
Nope, it's because Asian parents often push their children extremely hard, often beyond what could be considered useful or sane.
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This is another central problem I see in America - Intelligence is not stressed, and in some cases it is looked down on as being a negative trait. *Of course* your going to get stupid people if they think that intelligence is a bad thing to have. |
What does this have to do with our education system?
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11-06-2004 01:28
Let kids fail if they can't make it, there are plenty of McJobs and GEDs available for the stupid.
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