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Should we attack Parthemunde or not? (4 days)
This poll is closed. |
| Yes |
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10 |
50.00% |
| No |
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8 |
40.00% |
| Abstain |
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2 |
10.00% |
| Total: |
20 voters |
100% |
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E_T
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Orlando, Florida
Mar 2001
time: 00:36
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quote:
Originally posted by BigFree
I'm not so much counting on anything really. I'm just looking at what's realistic. I'm talking about making a total of 3 landings. First at Ruhrpott, second again near Ruhrpott, and then third at Parth. What I think GWT will do is concentrate their forces where they need them at the time with the limitations being the numbers of units they have avaialable and the relative travel times bewteen all the landing, including what CFC will be doing.
By landing at so many different places GWT will likely have to hedge their bets and station units evenly (or at least try to do so) so that they feel they can cover the most ground/cities. I really think we need to take this small risk because of the relatively large payout it could have for us.. |
I'll see what I can do to get more Horsemen out, but that will also require us to cut out Iron again.
Here's what the tenitive plans were for the cities that have barracks (or soon to be building them):
Ming - 600 shield Wonder - tenatively to be completed turn 223 (just before GA starts - same turn, but Ming comes first in the city by city stuff) - Possible Sun Tzu or JSB.
Banana - 600 shield Wonder - Tenatively to be comleted on turn 225 (2 turns into GA) - Possible JSB or Smiths.
Tripoli - 600 shield Wonder - Tenatively to be comleted on turn 226 (3 turns into GA) - Possible JSB or Smiths.
BFC - building 30 shield units, preferably Num Merc's, as they can be immediately upgraded to Muskets and we won't be able to build any more Num Merc's after the GA starts (unless we disconnect all 3 of our SP deposits).
Hispancia - building Aquaduct - Harbor - Units (land or Naval). Will have 9 SPT at size 7 
Incensity - either just building Caravels or Aquaduct and then Caravels. Can also do Land units. 8 SPT at size 6 & 7, but more trade at 7.
Dominus - Market - Lib - Court - Land Units. Will have 15 SPT after it's borders expand and the court is built. Market needed to let it's pop grow more and the lib for the border expansion and the Court to get that extra SPT. I've looked at different build plans for this city, and if we do JUST Mil units, it won't get them out as fast, over time as doing the other stuff first. Plus, it will require about the same in shortrush costs as this plan does.
Chiquita - Finishing Lib - Barracks - Land Units. Also 15 SPT after it's borders expand.
PoV - Aquaduct - Barracks - Land Units
Other southern cities - Naval Units after getting setup, mainly Frigates during the GA. but some Caravels possible before that.
If we get Sun Tzu, then several of the other cities can also work on Land Units.
MoI E_T
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Togas
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California
Jun 2002
time: 21:36
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Trip assumes that GWT will be able to defend EVERY POSSIBLE INVASION POINT once they see our invasion. And then he talks smugly about our overconfidence and our need to have Parth undefended.
We can overpower a garrison at Parth or at any other signifigant point in GWT's defenses. 12 knights is enough to break a basic city defense. GWT does not have the resources to post a strong defense all possible invasion points, nor would they assume that we would divide our forces and strike different points on different turns.
Logicaly, we would either send our entire invasion force to one point, or we would simultaneously attack different points in order to split their defenses. Why the hell would GWT assume that we would send troops on a later turn to a new landing zone, and if they DID assume that, it would cause them to split their forces up amongst so many different hypthetical invasion points that they would not be able to beat back our initial invasion force!
The ONLY danger, IMO, of the Parth attack failing is if we were unlucky enough to land when they have their counter-attacking Ansars in the vicinity that are en-route to the FP site, and even if that was so, GWT would have to split their forces to deal with the Parth invasion, which would weaken their responding forces to our main attack.
Now, if we wanted to increase the chances of both attacks succeeding, we could delay launcing the main force by a 2-3 turns, giving the Parth force a head start. This is assuming that CGN is still dug in and GWT is still putting them under seige. This would also give GWT 2-3 more turns to rush a wonder with that GL, because if they don't rush a wonder then our FP strike will be somewhat meaningless in the big picture.
--Togas
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Aidun
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The Hague, the capital of the civilized world
Nov 2002
time: 06:36
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With all these experts discussing here, my comments will probably not be of much worth, but I have at least the willing ear of the wind.
Expert civ players of Apolyton, you know what I don't understand about you?
You want to destroy the FP-city, Ruhrpott of GWT, while all of you acknowledge that that is only temporary and that it is not unlikely, even rather likely with that new GL of them, that they rebuild it soon after the attack.
To make sure the attack causes more permanent damage, some of you want to attack Parthemunde, because they expext Parthemunde is poorly defended.
In order to destroy Ruhrpott you have planned to send very much krights to Ruhrpott and only a few to Parthemunde, even though it appears out of everything that you have said in the past few months on this topic, that Parthemunde is the first prize.
Why the Hell are you sending those damned 30 knights not to that damned Parthemunde if you want to have it destroyed so eagerly?
Aidun
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Lord Nuclear
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quote:
Originally posted by Aidun
With all these experts discussing here, my comments will probably not be of much worth, but I have at least the willing ear of the wind.
Expert civ players of Apolyton, you know what I don't understand about you?
You want to destroy the FP-city, Ruhrpott of GWT, while all of you acknowledge that that is only temporary and that it is not unlikely, even rather likely with that new GL of them, that they rebuild it soon after the attack.
To make sure the attack causes more permanent damage, some of you want to attack Parthemunde, because they expext Parthemunde is poorly defended.
In order to destroy Ruhrpott you have planned to send very much krights to Ruhrpott and only a few to Parthemunde, even though it appears out of everything that you have said in the past few months on this topic, that Parthemunde is the first prize.
Why the Hell are you sending those damned 30 knights not to that damned Parthemunde if you want to have it destroyed so eagerly?
Aidun |
I don't understand this either. Nor do I understand why CFC is going for a different objective then us.
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E_T
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Orlando, Florida
Mar 2001
time: 00:36
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Reasons for only sending 6 Knights to Parth:
#1) Timing - getting the Units together and into the positions that they are needed to be in, at the time of getting Navigation. At the time of when we had started planning this, we didn;t know (but hoped that there would be) a sea channel to the Northwest, that would have allowed the Parth Group to get closer, for when we DID get Navigation.
Now that isn;t the case, and 3 turns are lost because of it. BUT, we COULD also send the Units that are on the AIS Heroic (2 Muskets & 1 Knight). It would be 1 tile behind the main Parth Group, but arrive at the same time as the others, because of the distance involved. The Problem is that would leave us with 2 Muskets & 1 Knight less to go on the FP strike.
Now, we COULD move some units around on the boats. to where we have either all knights on Heroic or 1 Musket and 2 Knights. It will require some fairly complex manuvering of both boats and units, but we can do it, if done properly.
#2) cost - we will have approximately 10 gold in the bank, when we get all of the upgrades done. We (and CFC) are both draining our accounts to make this strike a possibility. BUT, we will have more money coming in and I think that we possibly might get atleast 2 more horses out and onto AIS Assassin, to follow several turns after the other groups. It's only 2 Knights, but that is the best we can get, with our current resources, I think, at least until we get some other Caravels back across the water.
#3) Production Capabilities and our own plans for the future - We are working to get the most in the shortest amount of time, to get ready for our GA and to get ready for the main event.
MoI E_T
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MrWhereItsAt
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New Year's Resolution: 2005 is the year of Where It's At - come get some.
Nov 2001
time: 17:36
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OK. I have read every thread I could find, and done some looking up of my own.
When this strike on Ruhrpott was conceived, it was not to be the last gasp of our civ - kill or die. This is a precursor "smash and grab smash some more" before the main event of an invasion later that takes into account their weakened state. For this to work we need to have GWT in a weakened state relative to now, as though they may be lax in their victory over CGN (with no enemies anywhere near, and with them topping the scores and everything else Demographic, why squeeze every shield and trade out of your civ?), afterwards we cannot expect them to maintain the same attitude.
At the same time, the risk of GWT getting another GL (assuming they use the one they have now on the Sistine Chapel) during our invasion is unfortunately realistic. Thus it could be that, instead of costing them a powerful productive centre for centuries more, we merely wipe out a few tens of thousands of GWT citizens, and reduce the armies of both of us.
Given the chance (since GWT seems to have a surfeit of GLs coming to them - Heroic Epic perhaps?) that the Ruhrpott strike will be nasty, but not deliver such the knock-out blow we need, I think we should go for Parthemunde as well. If GWT gets a GL then they can rebuild the FP. If they got TWO they could not build Smith's, which we have essentially already pipped them to, and is important for us. If we lost in our attempt to take Ruhrpott, then bugger, but I defy anyone to say they KNOW that will happen with 3 Knights less out of 30. We can't forsee everything. If we lose 6 or 9 Knights at Parthemunde, then again, bugger, but 6-9 Knights is a fair gamble I'd say for such a rich prize.
Parthemunde. Greatest in the cities of the world. Glittering jewel in GWT's Sceptre. Site of the Pyramids and Colossus, which (if they are using correctly) have advantaged GWT hugely for centuries, and will continue to do so for centuries more. They have 8 Medieval techs and 7 Industrial to go before Flight cancels that, and it's hardly likely they would go for that route.
If we assume a fast average of 7 turns per tech in the Medieval and 10 turns per tech for the Industrials, +12 trade per turn (+1 per tile) amounts to (after a Market, and a Bank in the Industrial) around 2600 gold/beakers etc the Colossus would garner them. That doesn't count any growth beyond pop 12 in the Industrial. That's pretty nice when you're trying to squeeze your opponents - That's 4 full turns of our current trade, or an average of about 20 trade per turn extra. Probably closer to 3600 if they don't go straight for Flight, and if they build a Sewer System there maybe another 1000. Maybe 40 trade per turn average (at pop 20 in Republic we could expect they get just under 60 trade per turn raw, with Market, Bank, Uni and Library bonuses this could amount to 120 trade over turn, with 40 of this from the Colossus). That would be worth denying them, as WELL as the amount the city already gets.
Right now, at pop 12, Parthe gets around 36 trade raw, modified to about 50 after Market or Library. Averaging over the turns until Flight cancels the Colossus could give them almost 100 trade per turn average. That means, over the timescale we're looking at, 17000 trade. That, my friends, is what we here in the colonies call a sh*tload (Assuming of course, I haven't arsed up in too many places here.)
I would risk a lot to take this city, which would be an enormous blow - psychological and real. GWT would NEVER recover from this. FPs can be rebuilt in an instant, but with the sheer trade scope of the Colossus, added to the food from the Pyramids, and the possibility of one day a Culture victory for GWT because of this damned city of Glories, I want Parthe out. Out, damned spot!
9 Knights to Parthe. This is the least we can do. Cap the bastard. :doitnow:
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MrWhereItsAt
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New Year's Resolution: 2005 is the year of Where It's At - come get some.
Nov 2001
time: 17:36
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Thanks, but I know you're just saying that 'cos it's longer than anything you've posted for a week or so 
Seriously though, as I worked through all that (not actually realising what the answer would be, and convincing myself at the end), I became more and more aware that this could be the blow that allows us, with hopefully Smith's behind us, to overtake GWT for the Last Dance(TM), and not so much the FP. (I'm patenting that phrase now, just getting in ahead of things  )
The FP could, with some unfortunate luck for us, be rebuilt in a flash. The Colossus, if gone, has no equal anywhere again until PERHAPS the SETI Program. Which is far too late in the day to save a nation.
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Adrian Hon
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Living in Perplex City
Nov 2001
time: 05:36
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Agreed - put this way, taking down Parth is really worth a risk. MWIA has convinced me on this one (I had previously abstained in the poll).
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Apolyton Time is 00:36. |
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14-06-2004 07:26
maybe they'll build it in Flammburg 
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