13-06-2004 08:56									#1
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Discussion thread is here.

Should we plan on striking Parthemunde in addition to Ruhrpott or not?

4 days for the vote.

Note that voting abstain has no effect on the poll and is for record-keeping purposes only.

Last edited by Trip on 13-06-2004 at 09:03

	13-06-2004 09:06									#2
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I voted abstain, because it depends on what happens after the first attack.

	13-06-2004 10:47									#3
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I'm in favor of sending the forces behind schedule, having them head around toward the Parth landing point and then make a decision AT THE TIME whether or not to reveal and then land them. If we abort, we abort... they go back home instead.

It's only a few units and at least the chance of it working is a good enough reason to take the gamble of sending them around the north of the map.

We have no idea what the military situation is going to look like by then and while the probabilities would be vastly against us if we should go ahead with the Parth gambit, it's worth at least laying the groundwork in the unlikely event that it would still be worth it.

To sum up:

We send the force, but keep our finger on the big red "ABORT" button while the force is en route.

	13-06-2004 11:00									#4
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I don't think we should send it.

Current timetable:

Main strike force lands in 6 turns.

Parthemunde strike force lands in 14 turns.

The gap between them is too large. GWT will be ready and waiting. No chance.

	13-06-2004 12:08									#5
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voted no, agreed with trip. need the two to be closer together, since they can't....

	13-06-2004 12:21									#6
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I say yes just to keep them off balance. we don't know what will be there when we get there. We may be able to land on mountain and then attack from there maybe killing some Ansar; maybe getting lucky and razing the city. We just don't know. Heck, why don't we send a 3rd party to land near or somewhere close the the 1st landing zone just to draw some attention. Maybe that'll free up Parth enough for us to do some real damage.

What would it take to get another small landing party together that would be able to land in, say, 13 turns?

	13-06-2004 13:02									#7
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Why is there an 8 turn gap? Can someone explain why we're suddenly chickening out on this attack and why Trip suddenly is so opposed to this plan?

--Togas

[edit by E_T] I hit the wrong button [/edit]

Last edited by E_T on 13-06-2004 at 18:58

	13-06-2004 14:39									#8
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Where could I see the plans? (when are we going to attack, where, how many units, and so on)

	13-06-2004 17:09									#9
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Concentrate on one goal only.

	13-06-2004 17:43									#10
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Never liked the multiple strike idea.
So I vote no.

The Parth attack was always just an add-on to the original plan.
I see no reason to give GWT a chance to create a new GL.

	13-06-2004 18:55									#11
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quote: Originally posted by BigFree I say yes just to keep them off balance. we don't know what will be there when we get there. We may be able to land on mountain and then attack from there maybe killing some Ansar; maybe getting lucky and razing the city. We just don't know. Heck, why don't we send a 3rd party to land near or somewhere close the the 1st landing zone just to draw some attention. Maybe that'll free up Parth enough for us to do some real damage. What would it take to get another small landing party together that would be able to land in, say, 13 turns?

Well, the boats COULD come back across the ocean, pick up more units and head back over....

E_T

	13-06-2004 18:59									#12
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quote: Originally posted by Togas Why is there an 8 turn gap? Can someone explain why we're suddenly chickening out on this attack and why Trip suddenly is so opposed to this plan? --Togas

Trip has really never been in favor of this plan.

Trip also failed to mention that the timetable for the CFC strike has ALSO changed, because of where they are going to be going to (after Flammburg and Leo's - AT Trips suggestion, mind you).

I was going to post an update to the timeline today (allowing me to take my time on it), but now I have to rush to get it out.

E_T

	13-06-2004 21:18									#13
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If GWT hasn't used its GL by the time the main strike has happened, though, that part of the attack will be rather pointless. If we try this, we can at least then still hope to do some damage even in the worst case.

	13-06-2004 21:38									#14
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quote: Originally posted by Togas Why is there an 8 turn gap? Can someone explain why we're suddenly chickening out on this attack and why Trip suddenly is so opposed to this plan? --Togas [edit by E_T] I hit the wrong button [/edit]

The 8 turn gap is there because we were originally hoping the sea to our north extended some toward Parth. Since it hardly extends further than what we saw pre-Astro, the timetable for an attack on Parth is pushed back because there's not much a strike force could do to get toward it pre-Nav.

	13-06-2004 21:38									#15
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I think they will use it before we get there, it's not like they have a reason to keep it, unless they are going to go for a wonder that they can't build yet.

	13-06-2004 21:38									#16
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quote: Originally posted by Nuclear Master I think they will use it before we get there, it's not like they have a reason to keep it, unless they are going to go for a wonder that they can't build yet.

This is my main concern. They don't even have Theo for Sistine's. Unless they're going to go for Sun Tzu's, they may indeed choose to sit on it until they can do some research.

	13-06-2004 21:41									#17
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I don't think they'll build an army, because they think that they won't be in a war any time soon, so that is out of the picture. Hopefully they will go for Sun Tzu's.

	14-06-2004 00:33									#18
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I have now been able to get the full timeline together

In this,
CFC-Beta - goes for the Alpha/Beta/Gamma Area (then could work up towards Flammburg)
AND
CFC-Flam - goes directly for Flam, as Trip proposed to CFC during the last chat.

[EDIT] the times of when we get the technologies is based on a CONSERVATIVE growth in our BPT. This will most likely be better and we could get into Industrial Age at least 2 turns sooner. The main thing is, that we will have Magnetism before our GA, which is also when most of the cities will be ready to crank out Frigates...
the Ming, Banana & Trip 600 things are when those cities would have 600 shield wonders completed (or maybe sooner).[/edit]



E_T

Last edited by E_T on 14-06-2004 at 01:16

	14-06-2004 01:20									#19
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I still see an opportunity for us to do some damage to Parth; maybe even level it. With so many different landing and witht he possibility of us send back our ships for a third landing party (which should land one turn prior to the Parth landing); we could really wreck GWT's plans!

	14-06-2004 01:23									#20
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the Parth strike, because of the fact that we don;t have a sea channel to the northwest, like we were hoping, only delayed by 3 turns.

Just to let everyone know, CFC is sending 4 boats, with 11 to 12 riders.

E_T

	14-06-2004 01:23									#21
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Thanks for the timeline ET, it really helps.

	14-06-2004 05:18									#22
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great chart

	14-06-2004 05:35									#23
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Great job ET



But why exactly is CFC not attacking near the area we are? We could surely take Parthe if that were so.

	14-06-2004 05:43									#24
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quote: Originally posted by Togas Why is there an 8 turn gap? Can someone explain why we're suddenly chickening out on this attack and why Trip suddenly is so opposed to this plan?

The gap is because of the fact that we are 3 turns away from Ruhrpott and around 10 or 11 from Parthemunde. If we launch at the same time from both ends the moment we get Nav (or shortly thereafter) then that gap is due to transit time.

	14-06-2004 05:45									#25
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quote: Originally posted by E_T the Parth strike, because of the fact that we don;t have a sea channel to the northwest, like we were hoping, only delayed by 3 turns.

Delayed by 3 turns as compared to before. There is still a large gap between the two landings which is why I'm opposed to the Parthemunde landing.

	14-06-2004 05:47									#26
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quote: Originally posted by E_T Trip also failed to mention that the timetable for the CFC strike has ALSO changed, because of where they are going to be going to (after Flammburg and Leo's - AT Trips suggestion, mind you).

The main point is to get CFC involved and distract GWT. Since they'll be landing after us the chances of them meeting with success are very slim. Their army will likely be destroyed quite quickly with little impact. I don't honestly expect them to achieve anything tangible with their landing. Which is why I have never mentioned them.

	14-06-2004 05:51									#27
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quote: Originally posted by BigFree I still see an opportunity for us to do some damage to Parth; maybe even level it. With so many different landing and witht he possibility of us send back our ships for a third landing party (which should land one turn prior to the Parth landing); we could really wreck GWT's plans!

With the landing taking place so many turns after the main Ruhrpott strike, GWT will have many turns to get Ansar into position to defend against a second landing. Once they know we have the capability (and the intention) of landing and doing damage to them, they will realize that we can land anywhere at any time. In order for the Parthemunde strike to succeed we have to expect GWT to keep their main core undefended even after knowing we are able to land.

The difference between that and the first landing is that GWT will know we can land!. So saying "we're depending on GWT being lax and leaving a location undefended in both cases so if the first landing succeeds then the second should also" as E_T has been trying to promote recently is a logical fallacy. The only reason they would be leaving any of their cores undefended is because they don't expect us to land. When we strike Ruhrpott that naivete will instantly vanish.

	14-06-2004 06:22									#28
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quote: Originally posted by Trip The main point is to get CFC involved and distract GWT. Since they'll be landing after us the chances of them meeting with success are very slim. Their army will likely be destroyed quite quickly with little impact. I don't honestly expect them to achieve anything tangible with their landing. Which is why I have never mentioned them.

So, are you saying, that your sending them to go after Flammburg and not the Alpha/Beta/Gamma area is more to further distract GWT (and give CFC less of a chance).

i.e., your sending CFC on a suicide Mission. Hmmmm, I'm wondering why this has never come up in any the Internal Chats (#ApolytonISDG Private room), unless you let the other Consuls know, via the Private Consuls Private Chat room??

Or were you just keeping that little bit of Info entirely to yourself?

E_T

	14-06-2004 06:41									#29
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At the time I didn't know when CFC would be landing. Unless they land the same time as us, yes, it is a suicide mission. If they land anywhere after us (2+ turns) then it will mean the destruction of their force. GWT's army will be coming north en masse (along with whatever they have near home) and CFC's 11 Riders will be a pebble in the river at best.

They have an equal chance at dying no matter where they land. If they go for Flammburg at least they have a chance at doing something tangible.

	14-06-2004 07:25									#30
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My view on the situtation:

Well first of all, I had argued in favor of Parth for reasons which were rather justified, based on the knowledge we had at the time. However, things have changed, most noticeable, the timelines. I am not in favor of delaying any of our strikes, nor CFC's since our most valuable asset, besides luck, will be time. The quicker we strike, the more likely we will catch GWT off guard, and the higher our chances of success.

But on the other hand, the GL situation changes things. If GWT has the GL, taking out Ruhrpott will be a LAUGHABLE gain at best. This attack is do or die, people, we have to knock out SOMETHING from GWT in order to have justified the effort. If we can't inflict permanent damage regarding the FP, we have no choice than to attempt to take out Parthemunde, even if the odds are minimal.

I will now say that I am very much opposed to the Flamburg strike, it will happpen right when GWT's army is in transit and will fall likely at the feet of their Ansar which is suicide to say the least. Now you will say, how is this any different from Parth? Well simple, CFC has NO other objective, at least Parth is merely a sideshow for us. A skillful cutting of roads in the Beta/Gamma area can very much slow down whatever army GWT sends against us, and that increases the odds of survival for both our Rhurpoot AND Parth groups.

I would like to think that GWT will send all it can against Rhurpott and that we'll have a shot at Parthe. But the fact is, we don't know, and we are basically polling blind on the issue. We do know that GWT's army is out there, somewhere, maybe not in the north. We know they have a GL and we don't know when they'll use it.

In short, I am not yet voting until I see more arguments, at the time I am narrowly leaning towards Parthe but if, and only if we get CFC to concentrate on Beta/Gamma with their fulls strength and not bother with Flammburg until after they cut roads.