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Drake Tungsten is offline Drake Tungsten
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Knee deep in alien womyn...
Oct 2001
time: 14:36
  Old Post 14-06-2004 21:41
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SCOTUS tells Newdow to piss off Suffering from ads?

The latest installment in my long standing tradition of cut-and-paste crap posting. Take that, loinburger!

quote:
Court dismisses Pledge case
Atheist father cannot sue over use of 'Under God'

WASHINGTON (CNN) -- The Supreme Court on Monday ruled that a California atheist could not challenge the words "one nation under God" in the Pledge of Allegiance, sidestepping the broader question of separation of church and state.

The ruling -- delivered on Flag Day -- means that the full pledge will continue to be recited in the nation's public schools.

Five justices -- led by Justice John Paul Stevens -- said Michael Newdow, the father, did not have legal standing to bring the case. Newdow, who is involved in a custody dispute with the mother of their third-grade daughter, could not speak for the girl, the court ruled.

Writing for the majority, Justice John Paul Stevens said, "When hard questions of domestic relations are sure to affect the outcome, a prudent course is for the federal court to stay its hand rather than reach out to resolve a weighty question of federal constitutional law."

He added, "Newdow lacks prudential standing to bring this suit in federal court."

Led by Chief Justice William Rehnquist, three other justices said that the pledge does not violate the First Amendment, which prohibits the establishment of religion by the government.

At Newdow's request, Justice Antonin Scalia recused himself after he had made remarks in a speech critical of the case.

Newdow, who has medical and legal degrees and argued his own case before the high-court justices in March, never married the mother of the child and the two are in a battle over his parental rights.

The mother, Sandra Banning, has said she has no problem with her daughter reciting the full pledge and argued that Newdow had no right to bring the case.

In his minority opinion, Rehnquist wrote, "To give the parent of such a child a sort of 'heckler's veto' over a patriotic ceremony willingly participated in by other students, simply because the Pledge of Allegiance contains the descriptive phrase 'under God,' is an unwarranted extension of the establishment clause, an extension which would have the unfortunate effect of prohibiting a commendable patriotic observance."

Constitutional scholars have long debated whether the pledge serves as a prayer in addition to a patriotic oath.

Newdow sued the Sacramento County, California, school district his daughter attended, claiming public recitation by students violated her religious liberty. While legal precedent makes reciting the pledge voluntary, Newdow said it becomes unconstitutional when students are forced to hear it.

He argued that the teacher-led recitations carry the stamp of government approval. (March arguments before case)

Newdow declared that his daughter would be singled out if she chose not to say the pledge, and would be coerced to participate. "Imagine you're a third-grader in a class of 30 kids. That's enormous pressure to put on a child" to conform, he said. "Government needs to stay out of the religion business altogether."

The Bush administration opposed the ban, and Solicitor General Theodore Olson told the justices the pledge is simply a "ceremonial, patriotic exercise."

In June 2002, the 9th Circuit of the U.S. Court of Appeals drew sharply divided public opinion when it banned the teacher-led pledge for the nearly 10 million schoolchildren in the nine Western states under its jurisdiction. In striking down the pledge, the judges ruled "the coercive effect of the policy here is particularly pronounced in the school setting given the age and impressionability of schoolchildren." (The 2002 ruling)

But the ban was put on hold until the high court issues a final ruling.

The pledge was written in 1892 by Baptist minister and educator Francis Bellamy, who made no reference to religion in his version. It was originally worded: "I pledge allegiance to my flag and the republic for which it stands, one nation, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all." It quickly became a part of public school programs.

In 1954, Congress added the words "under God," after pressure by the Knights of Columbus and other groups. Another modification was to change "my flag" to "the flag of the United States of America."

The case is Elk Grove Unified School District v. Newdow (02-1624).

Supreme Court Producer Bill Mears contributed to this report.


http://www.cnn.com/2004/LAW/06/14/s...edge/index.html

Good on the Supreme Court. It's about time they shut that annoying heathen up.

Kuciwalker is offline Kuciwalker
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Feb 2001
time: 00:36
  Old Post 14-06-2004 21:51
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As a side note, we're watching a movie version of "Much Ado About Nothing" in English today

Imran Siddiqui is offline Imran Siddiqui

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The Potterverse
Jan 1970
time: 00:36
  Old Post 14-06-2004 21:54
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Proper ruling was made here. I still have no idea how the lower courts thought Newdow had any standing.

Ogie Oglethorpe is offline Ogie Oglethorpe
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Marietta, GA
Dec 1999
time: 05:36
  Old Post 14-06-2004 22:16
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Win on technicality is still a win.

chegitz guevara is offline chegitz guevara
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Ft. Lauderdale, FL Communist Party of Apolyton
Jun 2000
time: 00:36
  Old Post 14-06-2004 22:31 Visit chegitz guevara's homepage!
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So, now someone with standing will bring a suit. While technically correct, this was not a win, but a postponement.

God don't belong in the pledge, which was written by a socialist, and thus presumably, an atheist.

Imran Siddiqui is offline Imran Siddiqui

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Jan 1970
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  Old Post 14-06-2004 22:46
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quote:
So, now someone with standing will bring a suit.


We'll see. Since before this case you didn't have many 15 year olds petition the courts to get it removed, I wonder if it'll happen anytime soon.

chegitz guevara is offline chegitz guevara
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  Old Post 14-06-2004 22:47 Visit chegitz guevara's homepage!
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Well, most likely if someone threatens to bring suit, the school will simply excuse the child from saying the pledge instead. As for 15-year olds, I don't know many high schools that say the pledge.

Imran Siddiqui is offline Imran Siddiqui

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  Old Post 14-06-2004 22:50
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quote:
the school will simply excuse the child from saying the pledge instead


You are already allowed to be excused from saying the pledge.

Thorn is offline Thorn
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May 1999
time: 00:36
  Old Post 14-06-2004 23:03 Visit Thorn's homepage!
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quote:
Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
quote:
the school will simply excuse the child from saying the pledge instead


You are already allowed to be excused from saying the pledge.


Some schools won't let you and will discipline you if you don't. Either follow their instructions or go for a lengthy legal battle.

chegitz guevara is offline chegitz guevara
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Jun 2000
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  Old Post 14-06-2004 23:07 Visit chegitz guevara's homepage!
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What Thorn said.

Drogue is offline Drogue
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Oct 2002
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  Old Post 14-06-2004 23:15 Visit Drogue's homepage!
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I'd have loved it if I was a student in the US as a 15 year old. I'd have been straight to court to try to ban it. Religion has no place in public schools. I don't understand why you have laws against prayer in school, even volantarily, but force, or at the very least put a form of pressure (to conform) on students to recite a pledge with a religious message

Imran Siddiqui is offline Imran Siddiqui

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  Old Post 14-06-2004 23:15
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Then go for a legal battle. Hell, you can make the same claim if, say, the SCOTUS says you can't say the pledge at all: Some schools will still make you. That is what the legal system is for, people!

Drogue is offline Drogue
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  Old Post 14-06-2004 23:58 Visit Drogue's homepage!
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I would, but not being in the US, I can't. We never had compulasory, or pressure to have religion where I went to school.

ixnay is offline ixnay
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Jan 1970
time: 22:36
  Old Post 14-06-2004 23:58 Visit ixnay<br><img src=/forums/images/staff-icon.gif>'s homepage!
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I would have liked to see an actual decision be made on this, rather than having it postponed due to a technicality.

Oh well, I can only hope this gets fixed at some point in the future.

MrFun is offline MrFun
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Nov 2000
time: 23:36
  Old Post 15-06-2004 00:01 Visit MrFun's homepage!
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from article: "Newdow said it becomes unconstitutional when students are forced to hear it."



I did not know we have the right to be free from being offended.

Kuciwalker is offline Kuciwalker
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Feb 2001
time: 00:36
  Old Post 15-06-2004 00:03
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His point is that the school is forcing children to hear it - which is different from just hearing it from a private citizen.

Still an idiot though.

Drogue is offline Drogue
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  Old Post 15-06-2004 00:04 Visit Drogue's homepage!
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You don't allow students to pray in school, why is the pledge being religious any different? You have a right not to see/hear people pray, unless it's part of the pledge of allegiance?

MrFun is offline MrFun
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  Old Post 15-06-2004 00:05 Visit MrFun's homepage!
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I got news for this whiner -- whenever you go to any public place or institution, you run the risk of putting yourself in situations where you will hear something that might turn your eardrums inside out, or whatever horrible thing that happens when this does occur.

This parent should have realized this.

Ogie Oglethorpe is offline Ogie Oglethorpe
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Dec 1999
time: 05:36
  Old Post 15-06-2004 00:10
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quote:
Originally posted by Drogue
You don't allow students to pray in school, why is the pledge being religious any different? You have a right not to see/hear people pray, unless it's part of the pledge of allegiance?


A clarification. The shcools can not infringe upon the right of individual(s) to partake in prayer if they so choose. They can not mandate a prayer time or public prayer.

loinburger is offline loinburger
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Jul 1999
time: 00:36
  Old Post 15-06-2004 00:13 Visit loinburger's homepage!
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quote:
Originally posted by Drake Tungsten
The latest installment in my long standing tradition of cut-and-paste crap posting.



[sweet sauce mode]
Though technically this is copy-paste crap posting, unless you somehow managed to delete the article from the CNN website...
[/sweet sauce mode]

Drogue is offline Drogue
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quote:
Originally posted by MrFun
I got news for this whiner -- whenever you go to any public place or institution, you run the risk of putting yourself in situations where you will hear something that might turn your eardrums inside out, or whatever horrible thing that happens when this does occur.

This parent should have realized this.

Not when you don't have a choice of whether to go on not. You can choose not to go to a church, or to any other place prayer is likely to take place. You cannot choose to not go to school. Unless you can in the US

Jon Miller is offline Jon Miller
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May 1999
time: 23:36
  Old Post 15-06-2004 00:19
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quote:
Originally posted by chegitz guevara
So, now someone with standing will bring a suit. While technically correct, this was not a win, but a postponement.

God don't belong in the pledge, which was written by a socialist, and thus presumably, an atheist.


I thought that he was a Baptist Minister (According to the cut n paste)

Jon Miller

MrFun is offline MrFun
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quote:
Originally posted by Drogue

Not when you don't have a choice of whether to go on not. You can choose not to go to a church, or to any other place prayer is likely to take place. You cannot choose to not go to school. Unless you can in the US


You can choose which school to send your kids to.

Imran Siddiqui is offline Imran Siddiqui

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  Old Post 15-06-2004 00:39
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Or home school 'em.

MrFun is offline MrFun
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  Old Post 15-06-2004 00:41 Visit MrFun's homepage!
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If a parent is this whiny about the whole damn pledge thingie, then instead of being a narcistic, egotistic whiner who wants to get some media attention, he would have looked into what schools in the area have what kind of policy and THEN send his kid to the right school for his preference in the FIRST place.

loinburger is offline loinburger
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  Old Post 15-06-2004 00:42 Visit loinburger's homepage!
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quote:
Originally posted by MrFun
You can choose which school to send your kids to.

Not where I come from. There were a whole slew of hoops to jump through if you wanted to send your kids to a school out of your district, because schools are locally funded for the most part (so it's not as though they'd make it easy for me to transfer to a school in Richville so as to reap the benefits of their absurdly high property taxes). Not to mention the inconvenience (if not impossibility) of actually transporting your kids to the out-of-district school on a daily basis -- bus services were also managed within each district.

Drogue is offline Drogue
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Can you choose a school that doesn't recite the pledge with under God in it?

Ogie Oglethorpe is offline Ogie Oglethorpe
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Dec 1999
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  Old Post 15-06-2004 00:43
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Point is this whiny 'parent' had no parental rights to pick and choose which school his child was going to. Hence the supposed reason why this ***** decided to take it to the courts.

GePap is offline GePap
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  Old Post 15-06-2004 00:45
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IIRC Bellamy, who wrote it, was a minister, so he was not an aethist-since socialist anbd aethist are not equal. It simply sounds better without it anyways-that caluse is clumsy.

MrFun is offline MrFun
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quote:
Originally posted by loinburger

Not where I come from. There were a whole slew of hoops to jump through if you wanted to send your kids to a school out of your district, because schools are locally funded for the most part (so it's not as though they'd make it easy for me to transfer to a school in Richville so as to reap the benefits of their absurdly high property taxes). Not to mention the inconvenience (if not impossibility) of actually transporting your kids to the out-of-district school on a daily basis -- bus services were also managed within each district.


different strokes for different folks (your situation is not the same as everyone else's)

 
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