20-01-2001 21:48									#1
	Civilazation type games are dying. Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

I post this here because Apolyton is a civ forum.

Well new games dont only have to be good they have to be original too.

You got to make something new because a old thing improved is just boring if you have played the old for 100 of hours.

Civ 1 was very good and ct2 is much more improved but basically they are just the same game .

If you have played the civ2 game 500 hours then you are not going to enjoy ct1 more that 50 hours because the game is not much different and you get bored.

If you played ctp1 for 100 hours then after 20 hours of ctp2 you get very bored.


We need something radically different.

The civ genre must change subtancially or it will die.

And with it Apolyton.

Apolyton will become just an OT forum and nobody will post in civ section.

WE WANT A RADICALLY DIFFERENT CIV GAME.

An idea for example a massivelly online civ game.

They will be a globe 20 civ and hundrets or thousants of cities in each civ.
Each online player would control one city.
You will be able to have 100 of buldings inside a city buid things do commerce with oter cities.
You must pay taxes in your CIV general goverment or you could conspire to overthow your goverment and put your own supreme leader.

You could control your own army send it collaborative with other cities of same civ to attact other civ cities send spies and and.

Every action you make should take 2 to 4 hours the most because you have a real life to live and if you dont log a ceatain day the AI should take care of your city or you could let a trusted friends ruler of another city to do it.

Something like this a radically different version of civ is needed to save the genre.

To the admins.

Send the message to the game making companys that we really want a different civ game something very original.

Because if we dont make the future others will make it for us.

Anyway I think that an MASSIVELLY ONLINE CIV GAME would compine the newfound populatity of online games with the vast untapped potencial of civ games.
Someone would make a huge fortune.

And I dont think that CIV 3 will be much different from the current civ game to save the genre.

God will not save the civ genre we must do it.

	21-01-2001 10:01									#2
	Full PM-box? Change here!

BURN HIM AT THE STAKE!

OK, now I think I could actually read that message... I have read only the title (and how can "Civilazation type games" be dying if they have never born?)

	21-01-2001 10:15									#3
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

<center><table width=80%><tr><td><font color=000080 face="Verdana" size=2><font size="1">quote:
<img src=/forums/"/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1>
</font><font size=1>Originally posted by LightEning on 01-20-2001 12:01 PM</font>
BURN HIM AT THE STAKE!

OK, now I think I could actually read that message... I have read only the title (and how can "Civilazation type games" be dying if they have never born?)
<img src=/forums/"/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1></font></td></tr></table></center>

<font size=3>READ the post </font>

	21-01-2001 02:34									#4
	Get a bigger avatar today!

Sigh, ss is right.

I'll go even further. Civ3 will bomb. Civ2 was YEARS ago, 70% of most players have moved on. SMAC was a horrid game sales-wise. Things aren't looking good.

An online game wouldn't be a classic, sleeperservice. That's a fad. Once people begin to log off and not use the service much (as in the console online revolution with the dreamcast), it dies off.

Let's bury the genre right now. Until it draws more attention from other developers than Microprose/Firaxis, keep it in a tomb.

	21-01-2001 04:15									#5
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

SS - Prediction about anything is perilous! Ask those who have gambled on stock markets or roulette wheels. After 10 reds a black must come up!!

40 years ago some were speculating the cinema would die because of television.

---------

SG(2)

	22-01-2001 05:28									#6
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

SMAC was certainly a lot different then Civ2, even if it sold badly. The new concepts of actually caring about the individual faction LEADERS and SKILLS and AI FACTORS and all that added an element that I always miss when I go play Civ2.

There's hope out there yet!

	22-01-2001 05:57									#7
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

SS... I disagree. I've played civII for thousands of hours. And I'm not bored with it yet. I am pissed that it still has some bugs and stupid features. But, I look forward to the day Civ3 comes out. Hopefully it will solve some of the problems and give us new stuff to play with. And if it stinks, I have something to complain about, and I'll keep playing civ

	22-01-2001 09:49									#8
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

I agree with Ming, call me retarded but I've been playing almost every day since civ 1 came out and I can't see an end in sight. Its like being a chess freak, the game is endlessly fascinating for some of us.

Now as to your question, yes, it is a problem that there are less and less TBS titles, and even fewer good ones. I think the reason is the phenomenal success of the shoot em up first person and role playing games, and the fact that the largest market for games is probably the 7-16 age groups. But I live in hope, the TBS genre just needs another runaway title, maybe civ 3, to ignite interest again.

Having said that, I think ultimately the future probably also lies in people modding games or making their own, like free civ. This is an area that's just taking off. It could be that in the near future companies won't produce games as such but tools or engines to build your own games. This has already happened with Doom/quake. It would be awesome.

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Chaos, panic and disorder - My work here is done.
<font size=1 face=Arial color=444444>[This message has been edited by Alexander's Horse (edited January 21, 2001).]</font>
<font size=1 face=Arial color=444444>[This message has been edited by Alexander's Horse (edited January 21, 2001).]</font>

	22-01-2001 12:44									#9
	Remove this text

<center><table width=80%><tr><td><font color=000080 face="Verdana" size=2><font size="1">quote:
<img src=/forums/"/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1>
</font><font size=1>Originally posted by sleeperservice on 01-20-2001 11:48 AM</font>
You got to make something new because a old thing improved is just boring if you have played the old for 100 of hours.

We need something radically different.

The civ genre must change subtancially or it will die.

Anyway I think that an MASSIVELLY ONLINE CIV GAME would compine the newfound populatity of online games with the vast untapped potencial of civ games.
Someone would make a huge fortune.


<img src=/forums/"/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1></font></td></tr></table></center>

I met some folks who resist change so much they refuse to have computers...and they play civ on a board Avalon Hill style in person!! Yes regular Civ games are played near here Avalon Hill style. You say you think civ will die unless radically changed? n-o-p-e, don't think so

There are many players who have many thousands of hours of non bored fun in this game because it is versatile and complex. You can make it be many differant ways and always a new feel to it.

I would not want it to change radically, but some things need attention.

Your idea for a game is a good one, but IMO it would be another game type. This is ok too.

Versatility and creativity is what keeps this game alive for me not radical change after a couple hundred hours of playing.
Look at chess and checkers for example...even the "guess which hand it is in game" which is ancient and is still fun. Tell me I am not the only one who has gotten a kick out of even this.

Some people get bored quicker than others.
Some see less things in something than others.

Some need a new game after an hour,
some after a hundred hours,
some just like the game...which would be me

It is really what YOU make it to be within the parameters of the game more than what the game does for you. But if a game does nothing for someone they will move on...

Civ changed radically would not be civ, and civ enhanced will not die easily or quickly.



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The journey itself is the thing~Odysseus

	23-01-2001 04:54									#10
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

<center><table width=80%><tr><td><font color=000080 face="Verdana" size=2><font size="1">quote:
<img src=/forums/"/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1>
</font>ts like being a chess freak, the game is endlessly fascinating for some of us.
<img src=/forums/"/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1></font></td></tr></table></center>

I hardly could think of comparing it to chess. Civ hasn't been out for a decade and you jump to conclusions about its longetivity.... ?

The truth is, computer games will never last more than ten years, ever. Even in the case of civ2 and SMAC, they are just CD's

	23-01-2001 06:14									#11
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

I disagree - if the game is sound, it will last forever.


------------------
Chaos, panic and disorder - My work here is done.

	23-01-2001 07:02									#12
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

That is correct AH... think about games like Risk or Diplomacy... ageless classics that are still being played on college campuses by a new generation.

	23-01-2001 07:42									#13
	Increase the size of your Attachments

Horsie,

Is AH a play off "Avalon Hill"?

	23-01-2001 09:18									#14
	Tired of ads?

SMACed is correct. While civ may last for awhile.... most computer games have a limited shelf life no matter what games they are..... chess on the puter isn't different than chess on the board.

However how many of you still play civ1... not too many i bet.... not because its not a great game... but because civ2 is out and it is better and newer.

In all likelyhood if civ3 is da bomb.... many of us will shelf civ2 forever even though over the last five years it has reigned supreme. I doubt anyone will play civ2 in the year 2100ad but rest assured that chess will still be player

	23-01-2001 10:58									#15
	Increase Your PM Length

Ming & AH,

There is a problem here. If <em>Civ</em> type games can't attract newcomers, then it is going to bomb regardless of the hardcore fanatics.

I played <em>Civ</em> for hundreds of hours when it first came out. <em>Civ 2</em> is supposedly vastly improved but I could never get into it. A few days ago I reinstalled <em>Civ 2</em>, and I got bored soon after.

<em>SMAC</em> is quite a bit different from <em>Civ</em> as I played it quite frequently. <em>CtP</em> is just yuck. It tried to be different for the sake of being different and the silly notion backfired.

Therefore, to attract newcomers and retain the old-timers, <em>Civ 3</em> must tread a very thin line. It has to innovate, to add enough new elements, but these has to be added in a logical manner.

Why is this thread in this forum?

	23-01-2001 19:11									#16
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

I don't think turn based stategy games are dead. The reason board games from companies like avalon hill went the way of the dinosaur was there limitations, not design flaws. It's a sure bet civ2 will fade, just as civ1 did(Now be honest, do you ever play anymore?). The hope for civ3 will be more and better: More civs to work with; more techs to research; more wonders to build; more slots for scenario designers ect. Ask yourself this: are you still using the same pc that you had five or ten years ago? Or did you upgrade it, or replace it completely? If people become grognards who refuse change(As many board wargamers were,I know,I was one of them) then tbs and civilization will die and that's a fact. But I doubt that will happen, because of the very nature of the game we play. You get rewarded in the game, and cannot finish it, if you don't move foward and advance(Just like real life). As always sales will determin what gets made and how. That's just the way I see it.

	24-01-2001 03:40									#17
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

<center><table width=80%><tr><td><font color=000080 face="Verdana" size=2><font size="1">quote:
<img src=/forums/"/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1>
</font>That is correct AH... think about games like Risk or Diplomacy... ageless classics that are still being played on college campuses by a new generation.
<img src=/forums/"/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1></font></td></tr></table></center>

Risk/Diplomacy aren't really computer games (although people tried - yuck ).

	24-01-2001 05:53									#18
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

I thought the board wargaming explosion of the '70s would last forever, and if anyone back then had suggested that it would be near dead within 20 years, well they would get replys such as the ones to this thread I'd imagine. Like those who still play those great old classic games upon which armies of cardboard pieces snake across a map, we might one day, 20 years from now, be playing Civ 2 or three for the millionth time, and wondering where it all went wrong.

I think D&D 'did in' wargaming, combined with other factors. I watched many gamers get drawn away from wargaming groups to become involved w/ D&D, never to return. Those groups dwindled and disappeared, taking wargaming down with them.

Now I see endless monster shooter games dominate the comp game mags. Page after page of different games, each with some silly monster drawing with cryptic words about how powerful it is...and I think D&D, and extrapolate the demise of turn based strategy computer games.

I have a copy of War in Europe, a huge game made by S&T in the '70s that a fellow named UncleRoggy, who used to visit here, sent me last year as a gift. I have a few other good old wargames to mess around with also. Now I have a few computer games I really like too. Civ and Civ 2, some others, and if the quite contemplation of turn based builders gives way to pimply faced kids blasting monsters, so be it. I still have what I have, and am content.

If however more turn based comes along...WOOHOO!
<font size=1 face=Arial color=444444>[This message has been edited by Lancer (edited January 23, 2001).]</font>

	24-01-2001 06:53									#19
	Suffering from ads?

I am anticipating the release of Europa Universalis here in the United States. And yes it is real time, but I don't think that will cause it to be bad. Give it a fair try and you might be pleasently surprised. And I don't think Apolyton will go away. If I am not mistaked this is a place for more of the die hard fans than just the casual player. I came here because of SMAC.

	24-01-2001 07:33									#20
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Lancer, keep the faith man, I still have my board games


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Chaos, panic and disorder - My work here is done.

	24-01-2001 23:39									#21
	Inflate your Upload Space

Look at it this way. Civ1 was a phenomenally popular game, civ2 was a phenomenally popular game, so by all logic, civ3 should be a phenomenally popular game. When mps tried to make ctp different, many people hated it and went back to civ. So mps should just continue making civ the way it is. BURN SS AT STAKE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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- SilverDragon, scourge of the western skies

Email me at
SilverDragon141@aol.com

	24-01-2001 23:57									#22
	Full PM-box? Change here!

<center><table width=80%><tr><td><font color=000080 face="Verdana" size=2><font size="1">quote:
<img src=/forums/"/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1>
</font><font size=1>Originally posted by SilverDragon on 01-24-2001 01:39 PM</font>
Look at it this way. Civ1 was a phenomenally popular game, civ2 was a phenomenally popular game, so by all logic, civ3 should be a phenomenally popular game. When mps tried to make ctp different, many people hated it and went back to civ. So mps should just continue making civ the way it is. BURN SS AT STAKE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


<img src=/forums/"/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1></font></td></tr></table></center>

What he said!
<font size=1 face=Arial color=444444>[This message has been edited by cpoulos (edited January 24, 2001).]</font>

	25-01-2001 03:31									#23
	Tired of ads?

*gets tied to a stake*

Hey! What did I do?

	27-01-2001 12:53									#24
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

Admit it! You wanted to get tied to that stake, you sicko!

<center><table width=80%><tr><td><font color=000080 face="Verdana" size=2><font size="1">quote:
<img src=/forums/"/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1>
</font>SMAC was a horrid game sales-wise.
<img src=/forums/"/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1></font></td></tr></table></center>

Smoking some good stuff? SMAC was a GREAT game for Firaxis. They made loads on it! It was the 4th (IIRC) Highest Selling game of 1999...

[b]call me retarded[/q]

OK! You're retarded .

--

Civ3 will take the gaming world by storm. All those magazines with those FPSs will have Civ3 on the cover. Don't believe me? Look what happened with Civ2. You can't say in 1996, Turn Based was the rage? The biggest game was Tomb Raider and Quake. And Civ2 beat both (at least in gaming reviews). Civ3 will shake up the pot again.

	27-01-2001 19:11									#25
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

<center><table width=80%><tr><td><font color=000080 face="Verdana" size=2><font size="1">quote:
<img src=/forums/"/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1>
</font><font size=1>Originally posted by cpoulos on 01-24-2001 01:57 PM</font>
What he said!
<font size=1 face=Arial color=444444>[This message has been edited by cpoulos (edited January 24, 2001).]</font>
<img src=/forums/"/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1></font></td></tr></table></center>

I think he meant sleeperservice...

	27-01-2001 19:16									#26
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

<center><table width=80%><tr><td><font color=000080 face="Verdana" size=2><font size="1">quote:
<img src=/forums/"/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1>
</font><font size=1>Originally posted by sleeperservice on 01-20-2001 11:48 AM</font>

You got to make something new because a old thing improved is just boring if you have played the old for 100 of hours.

<img src=/forums/"/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1></font></td></tr></table></center>

Really? Then why do we all play CivII?

<center><table width=80%><tr><td><font color=000080 face="Verdana" size=2><font size="1">quote:
<img src=/forums/"/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1>
</font>If you have played the civ2 game 500 hours then you are not going to enjoy ct1 more that 50 hours because the game is not much different and you get bored.

If you played ctp1 for 100 hours then after 20 hours of ctp2 you get very bored.
<img src=/forums/"/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1></font></td></tr></table></center>

You miss a point here.
If we wont play a lot in a game from the same style but different and improved, why will we play for hundreds of hours in the SAME old game?
After all it is all over again, everything is the same(that's what the Civ haters say).

In conclusion :

BURN HIM AT THE STAKE!

	28-01-2001 07:15									#27
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

Just becuase some of us still like Civ2, doesn't meant the genre isn't in trouble. It's all about the market share, right Ming?

	28-01-2001 08:15									#28
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

<center><table width=80%><tr><td><font color=000080 face="Verdana" size=2><font size="1">quote:
<img src=/forums/"/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1>
</font><font size=1>Originally posted by Eli on 01-27-2001 09:11 AM</font>
I think he meant sleeperservice...


<img src=/forums/"/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1></font></td></tr></table></center>

Eli, your right. I sure did!

	28-01-2001 08:19									#29
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

<center><table width=80%><tr><td><font color=000080 face="Verdana" size=2><font size="1">quote:
<img src=/forums/"/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1>
</font><font size=1>Originally posted by Eli on 01-27-2001 09:16 AM</font>


BURN HIM AT THE STAKE!
<img src=/forums/"/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1></font></td></tr></table></center>
Yeah! Burn, Baby Burn!!!

	28-01-2001 21:56									#30
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

Well many people here say that they love old civ games ctp smac.
But you know thats not enough.
What matters is how new games are going to sell.
Although smac was good and so ctp1 and ctp2 they werent a mega hit.
So at this time the genre is in trouble.
Everybodys hope is in the new game civ 3 .
But this game does not need to sell good it needs to be a mega hit .Here and now in order to make a good game you need to spend a huge fortune to make a great game .So if civ 3 is not a mega hit and nobody is going to spend a lot of money in civ 4 or anyother game.

Now is civ 3 going to be any good ?
I am sure that its going to be the best civ ever.
Is this enough to met mega sales .No it isnt.

From http://www.firaxis.com/civ3/asktheteam_011901.cfm

:::
Thought you'd never ask! Yes we are addressing these ideas fairly vigorously. Culture and nationality will play dramatic roles in your Civilization's history. We have systems for reflecting cultural value of cities and civilizations that depend upon the players use of his resources
Ok thats good
:::
and
:::
Simon,

First off, we think the AI is progressing very nicely.

The diplomacy model is being completely overhauled to allow trading of many, many types of resources, commodities, Agreements, Technologies, units, gold, and cities in practically any combination that you can trick your opponent into accepting :-)

This is one of our primary areas of focus.

Thanks for asking!
::::
thats good also hopefully it will be just like smac.

But are these kind of changes good enough to make civ 3 original ?

From what i read is a game that will combine the strentghs of civ 2 and ctp and smac hopefully without compining their weakneses.

But is that enough to make it a mega hit ?.

No and I am going to tell you right now why.

A)Because of graphicks.
Yes you might think this is funny because these thinks in civ type games always suck compared with all other games and it didnt made any difference.
But now its different.All these people that are addicted in tbs dont need any such thinks but all the other people see civ-games graphicks and they suck.
Let a 15 year old child see a sacrifice screenshot and a civ-type one and you know civ-type screenshots suck big type.
Everybody says that they dont need them but right just like night does not need the day.

Maybe a fix would be to make fights 3-d and give player total control specially with many units in each square. But that would make a 24 hours game to last 48 hours.

and as for hardcore fans it would be original.Yes the best compination of smac civ ctp but nothing original.

P.S Some people try to put Sleeper in the stake.
Sleeper breaks free captures them and locks them in prison.Citizen arrest.