20-06-2004 17:53									#1
	Base trading/gifting between humans? Put an end to popups!

Up until recently, the only way bases could trade ownership between humans is by conquering them. However Kody recently wrote the program Codicil, and with that it should be possible to gift or trade bases to another human (IIRC by turning them into an AI, doing the gift or trade and immediately turning them back into a human - the faction involved won't suffer any negative effect from that process). So the question is simple: Should we allow trading or gifting of bases between humans in this ACDG?

Five days to vote.
(There hasn't been much discussion about this subject, so I just immediately started an "official" poll. But if someone wants to bring a point or concern to the discussion after all, we could also do a repoll later and consider this an informal information-gathering poll. )

	20-06-2004 18:00									#2
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Yes, but need limitations. Like a base once traded cannot be traded again for 50 years or something. Also that the person recieving the base, needs military unit in the base.

Otherwise people will attempt to continuously trade bases between each other, or it'll be possible for a faction to save another even though they're on opposite sides of the world.

	20-06-2004 18:10									#3
	Full PM-box? Change here!

Ah yes, continuous base trading or saving factions on the last minute was indeed also a point of concern for me. But your suggestion that they must have a military unit in the base to trade it sounds a good solution. A no-trade embargo for 50 years after sounds a bit high though IMHO, as who knows 50 years may be more than half the length of the game.

A point people thinking of trading bases need to keep in mind though is that when you gift away a base, your base count doesn't decrease by one, so you keep some more bureaucracy-drones than you normally would have had. This will probably or hopefully make sure that base trading or gifting will only be used for extraordinary circumstances (eg a peace treaty involving the return of some conquered bases to its original owner - this would've been great in the previous ACDG ), and not be used for massive exploits and continuous base trading.

	20-06-2004 18:19									#4
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Provided it doesn't lead to cheese tactics, I don't see why not. I'll leave off voting until more people have discussed the issue and presented arguments against.

	20-06-2004 18:23									#5
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I really can't think of any arguements against except that it just won't happen :shrug:

Voted YEA!.

	20-06-2004 18:37									#6
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

I agree to the possibility of base trading, under the condition that a base can't be traded to another team again for at least 20 turns, the same as council proposal turns. I don't see the need for a military unit of the receiving faction in the to traded base however.

No opinion however on how offen a base can be traded to an AI, but that point is fairly moot I suppose.

	20-06-2004 18:45									#7
	Put an end to popups!

Yes, but military unit is needed in that base to trade.

	20-06-2004 18:47									#8
	Full PM-box? Change here!

Why? When I offer a base to an AI, and a defender stays behind it transfers more offen then not to the AI as well in the deal.

	20-06-2004 19:05									#9
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When I say 50 years I mean for that particular base, not for all base trading. Maybe that is excessive, but 20 years could work I guess.

quote: Why? When I offer a base to an AI, and a defender stays behind it transfers more offen then not to the AI as well in the deal.

I mean a military unit of the other faction. That way the faction recieving the base needs to first move a military unit there before the trade can occur. So if you're halfway across the world you can't receive a base until one of your units moves there.

So it's like taking military control of that other faction's base, only without declaring war.

	20-06-2004 20:56									#10
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quote: Originally posted by GeoModder Why? When I offer a base to an AI, and a defender stays behind it transfers more offen then not to the AI as well in the deal.

Hmm - that's never been my experience for land bases. My units are immediately transported to my next nearest base, and often the gifted base will sit empty for many turns (except where the giftee is in vendatta with another faction, whereby it immediately gets occupied). For some reason, when I gift a base with a naval unit there, it gets transferred with the gift

(It's a tactic I sometimes use, when I have the tech lead and a base is getting pounded into submission - I'll call up a Treaty or pactmate and gift the base to them - that wasy I avoid techsteal when the base gets overrun by the enemy)

AFAIK only when mind-controling a base do the ground units within that base - or in that base's radius - get transferred as well

	20-06-2004 22:42									#11
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I sometimes had it that one units stays behind and transfers together with the base, while a whole army sitting in that base is sent back to my nearest base. For safety measures I mostly abandon such a base and then transfer it.

	20-06-2004 23:40									#12
	Suffering from ads?

It all depends on how easily this program can be used, do one or more of the turn players need to use it? Please elaborate.

	21-06-2004 00:08									#13
	Increase the size of your Attachments

YEA.

Limitations:

20 or 50 year limit on trading that particular base, but if another faction conquers it they may trade it.
Military unit must be present, but may be anywhere within the base radius to allow for base trading between non-pactmates
20-year limit on any trade after each base trade, because this could prevent gradual trading of several bases -- for example, for a peace resolution -- and since one must bring units to the bases, gradual might be the only way to do a large trade.

Any thoughts on these caveats?

	21-06-2004 00:36									#14
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Looks like everybody is in favor. However I voted no. Kody's program is untested, and the base trading itself has not be experimented in a pbem yet so nobody really have the experiences to tell the potential implication of such change. I would advocate we test this idea in other places first before we implement this in the ACDG. We all know ACDG involves much more people then a regular pbem and disputes can happen easily as it is, even without many drastic changes. I do not see it as a good venue to test out ideas, even if they are very good ideas.

	21-06-2004 01:44									#15
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

HongHu took my words right out of my mouth. Nay.

	21-06-2004 05:23									#16
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

It will take at least half a year before this possibility comes up. Surely in that time Kody's Codicil can be put to the test in a PBEM?

We can always decide that if the Codicil fails on that point, base trading is now allowed.

	21-06-2004 06:32									#17
	Increase Your PM Length

Truth be told I don't have any games to test on since I'm not a CMN for any games.

So far I've only handed out it out to 2 of the old crusty CMNs that requested it and nobody else, as far as I know base trading hasn't been tested at all.

Perhaps me and a few people can perhaps start a PBEM where we test out various tricks and such that the program might be capable of. I always wanted to see if the partial AI idea that my program opens up would work, how much fun it would be for players, and whether I need to put more security in.

	21-06-2004 06:49									#18
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

The whole idea of base trading usually involves difficult exchanges but it is not impossible, There is usually a loss of commerce.

So with willing partners in a prescribed scenario. It should be allowed.

	21-06-2004 09:24									#19
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

We could test it out in HoF?

	21-06-2004 10:05									#20
	Support Apolyton

If you can get EVERYONE in that game to agree to it. Rather than a normal PBEM the game will turn into playtesting ideas.

I'm fine with that, but I don't want to force other players into that decision.

	21-06-2004 10:59									#21
	Got spare money?

quote: Originally posted by Kody So far I've only handed out it out to 2 of the old crusty CMNs that requested it and nobody else, as far as I know base trading hasn't been tested at all.

I could use it in the Open Book PBEM, but seeing as You Think You Know Everything has a tri-CMNage you'd have to get Codicil to Googlie and Chaunk, too.
Or is Googlie one of said old crusty CMNs?

quote: Perhaps me and a few people can perhaps start a PBEM where we test out various tricks and such that the program might be capable of.

* Enigma_Nova calls shotgun for said PBEM

You already have the security of needing all the passwords.
(Rendering it moot for Open Book, Alpha Base and YTYKE but anyway...)
What more could you need?

As for HOF, that's 3-0 with Geo, Herc, CT and Chaunk still to vote.

	21-06-2004 11:41									#22
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quote: I could use it in the Open Book PBEM, but seeing as You Think You Know Everything has a tri-CMNage you'd have to get Codicil to Googlie and Chaunk, too. Or is Googlie one of said old crusty CMNs?

The CMNs are not really old and crusty, just teasing them because they've been around since like the game first came out.

quote: * Enigma_Nova calls shotgun for said PBEM You already have the security of needing all the passwords. (Rendering it moot for Open Book, Alpha Base and YTYKE but anyway...) What more could you need? As for HOF, that's 3-0 with Geo, Herc, CT and Chaunk still to vote.

I'm recently having second thoughts on the idea of starting a new PBEM to test out the ideas. Perhaps I'll try a mock PBEM at home to make sure it all works, even though that might miss things.

	21-06-2004 11:51									#23
	Get a bigger avatar today!

You have a lot of second thoughts, don't you?

	21-06-2004 15:45									#24
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I guess that may be why he didn't want to go mod.

	21-06-2004 16:13									#25
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

To be a mod, you have to be nosy, commentive, quick at judgement, and not supportive of any team in this game.

Enigma 4 mod!

	21-06-2004 16:27									#26
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

You're really funny Enigma.

	21-06-2004 16:45									#27
	Suffering from ads?

Wrong, a mod must be carefull with his judgement, and officer needs to be quick with that...

	21-06-2004 17:27									#28
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Careful to know the information and logically process the response?
Sure, I can do that. Kody can do that, too.
I just wonder if Kody can be impartial with all these emotion things in his head...

	21-06-2004 18:16									#29
	Support Apolyton

Probably not always, that's why I didn't go for mod. I'm just going to write emotional stories, newspaper articles etc.

	21-06-2004 19:04									#30
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...and generally be more of a bastion of spam than I am.
NW K!