23-06-2004 00:14									#31
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quote: I still have to say that Civ 1 had probably the best map view

I have to agree here...

	23-06-2004 01:46									#32
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Agreed. Ideally, a civ map would look like one of those old fashioned hand-drawn maps. There was a really neat mod along such lines made in the Civ3 files board.

	23-06-2004 07:50									#33
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3D CAN work for Civ, but you have to be careful of how it's implimented. I will be the first to say that I let out a groan when I heard about 3D. But as I got to thinking more about it, it could help streamline things (one of Soren's sticking points), and not ruin the series.

3D would be just fine (or even an improvement) if it was simply used to replace the current graphics engine along with a couple of other features that could help you navigate. Better zooming, panning, etc. Features that are useful and practical, and don't stand out by themselves but rather help to improve the rest of the game.

But if you try to go much beyond that, that's when you get into trouble. I saw a post over at CFC suggesting that 3D was a good idea because you could zoom in and see citizens working or individual battles being fought. Now that is heading down a dark dark road. That's when instead of improving the game, the 3D is detracting from it by drawing resources away from gameplay and the AI, and instead wasting them on frivolous eye candy - NOT the sticking point of Civ.

However, I think that with Soren's advertised focus things will probably take the former path rather than the latter. Anyone who knows anything about Civ knows that going the latter would only bastardize the series.

	23-06-2004 15:35									#34
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quote: But if you try to go much beyond that, that's when you get into trouble. I saw a post over at CFC suggesting that 3D was a good idea because you could zoom in and see citizens working or individual battles being fought. Now that is heading down a dark dark road. That's when instead of improving the game, the 3D is detracting from it by drawing resources away from gameplay and the AI, and instead wasting them on frivolous eye candy - NOT the sticking point of Civ.

I can't believe anyone would actually believe this would improve the game

	23-06-2004 18:36									#35
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3D can improve the game if done well. I often wish I could turn the map to have a look from another perspective, or to look from the zenith to have a look at the undistorted map, or to zoom in/out smoothly in order to give me more overview or more detail. But by more detail I don't mean working people or fighting individuals, which would indeed be a waste of resources for unnecessary eye-candy and give the game a RTS touch (). By the way, 3D would hamper the moddability of the graphics, wouldn't it?

	23-06-2004 19:25									#36
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quote: I can't believe anyone would actually believe this would improve the game

I don't see why idiots want that to be in EVERY game... people wanted it in Rollercoaster Tycoon... but it didn't improve Theme Park Tycoon which was the same idea as RCT... and people wanted to ride rides- but that didn't make the game any more fun.

Games should *focus*

	23-06-2004 19:37									#37
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Well, fast forward to end of 2005, the possible release time for Civ 4. Doom 3 and Half Life 2, shooters with next-generation graphics have been released. Quake 4 is released recently, or going to be soon. On the RTS front, a few new games have been announced, such as Age of Empires 3, and it looks like they will have very good and realistic graphics. The upcoming RPGs look quite a lot like movies, and are smooth.

On that background, the casual gamer isn't going to buy a game that isn't 3D. 2D games are getting old now, and will be by then. We, the hardcore civvers, don't care about the count of Ds, but the casual gamer will. And without having an appeal to casual gamers, Civ 4 can't hope to sell a few millions copies.

	23-06-2004 19:43									#38
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quote: The upcoming RPGs look quite a lot like movies, and are smooth.

But I generally hate how they look- admittedly 3D is beginning to improve- but still- even HALO looks a bit trashy on computer.

Unreal Tournament 2004 is the first really high quality 3D game released...

hybrid 3D's work 'ok' generally (like Empire Earth) but full 3D's like Neverwinter nights are clunky.

Personally, the more games that went to 3D the less that I bought- the newest game I have is neverwinter nights.

everything else I have is pre 2001. [Except Baseball Mogul 2003... but that's just a spreadsheet- no graphics]

(And I have over 200 games... so that's a bit scary )

These new games are trashy (in my opinion)

Then again, I understand the rhetoric that casual gamers are idiots... as evidenced by people's calls for 'let's zoom in to see the little people... I know its a useless feature and has nothing to do with the game, but it'll be C00l... H3ll, it r0x0rZ.'

*Sigh*

	23-06-2004 22:45									#39
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"Unreal Tournament 2004 is the first really high quality 3D game released..."

Have you seen the screenshots for Half-Life 2? It looks REAL. That is one of those games that will have kick-ass graphics AND will also have good gameplay. But the Civ series isn't FPS, it's Turn-based Strategy, and this wouldn't work as well.

As for the palace expansions...I don't think they detract from the flow of the game at all. You have to have a little bit of eye-candy, you can't just get rid of it completely. You guys make it sound like eye-candy is a BAD thing. Not EVERYTHING in a game has to be trategic or useful. Like, for example, the city view. I think it would be cool if they gave a realistic interpretation based ont eh view around it. You won't HAVE to use it, but it's there if you want to. Since, as long as your not moving units, Civ is automatically paused (sort of), you can just do other things. Just sitting there playing the game for several hours straight is just tiring in my opinion, you've got to have some eye-candy and visual stuff if you want it.

I often find myself thinking about how my empire and world would be if I lived in it. To stimulate some of these "role-playing" experiences, if you want to call them that, you could have eye-candy. I stress again, a lot of you don't do this, but some people do. It makes it seem like a more real experience. Just my two cents


Oh ya, and how do you put quotes in those gray boxes?

	23-06-2004 23:59									#40
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Sure, some eye candy can't hurt, but for a Civ game to go into houses in all cities and see people make breakfast is a bit too far away, but being able to see the cities would be great, but they should do realistic looking cities, not cities as in Civ3... and there should be some difference on the cities, so when going to city view you can tell what city it is, not just by looking at the city name at the top of the screen...

For now it looks like most people are worried about the 3D part of Civ4, which doesn't automaticly mean they hate eye-candy

	24-06-2004 02:18									#41
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They just hate eye-candy when it takes away from other parts of the game. They just don't say that explicitly.

Yeah, some eye-candy is good, just to make sure you don't go blind while playing. The fidget animations on Civ 3 units and stuff like that is fine. You need a few things, just to keep the feel of the game going. But like my example earlier, it's when you have little people walking down the streets in cities and individual dudes fighting in battles that you're getting too far away from what Civ really is.

None of the Civs ever had really great graphics for their time, but they've always sold extremely well. And now that computer gaming is more mainstream, the need to have flashy graphics is even less. The name alone will sell plenty of copies. Trying to cater to an audience that plays Warcraft will only turn the game into Warcraft.

	24-06-2004 03:31									#42
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Well, I must admit, the 3D part does worry me a bit, and ya, going to where you see little people on the street and individual soldiers fighting battles, ya, that's too far and would detract from the game.

Now, as for the 3D part, I hope all they do is make the terrian look realistic, you know, the roads and railroads don't go through the mountain they go around it, and not all mountains go straight up into a pinnacle, mountains can have forests in real life, and you should be able to chop them down in the game...same with hills. Make it so, even when you look at a mountain range, it actually feels like you're walking through the mountains or something. Not like so extreme that it detracts from the game, but to the point where it invigorates you.

Also, I wish you could rotate the camera to see if from different angles. If it's 3D this is almost a necessity. I wish they had more than 2 zoom options, maybe like a smooth zoom option, where you zoom out and it doesn't just automatically jump to the next setting. Now that would be cool.

...and I'm still wondering how to put the quotes in those grayish-blue boxes.

	24-06-2004 03:35									#43
	Remove this text

[off topic]
To put quotes into quote boxes you can do one of those things:

1) Press the "reply with quote" button by the post you want to raply to

2) write [ q ] text [ / q ] without the spaces...



[/offtopic]

	24-06-2004 08:25									#44
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Thanks for your help

	24-06-2004 08:25									#45
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bob_rulz-

quote: Have you seen the screenshots for Half-Life 2? It looks REAL. That is one of those games that will have kick-ass graphics AND will also have good gameplay. But the Civ series isn't FPS, it's Turn-based Strategy, and this wouldn't work as well.

Half Life2 isn't out yet (It's delayed indefinitely) Therefore, my comment stands.

quote: As for the palace expansions...I don't think they detract from the flow of the game at all. You have to have a little bit of eye-candy, you can't just get rid of it completely.

I agree with this, but more because of tradition than anything else- the palace was a very fun 'easter-egg' like function in Civ!

quote: Like, for example, the city view. I think it would be cool if they gave a realistic interpretation based ont eh view around it

Civ II and Civ I had a city view- it was useless. You would look at it for maybe a sum total of 3-4 hours... then never access it ever again... (It was a waste of code)

---

quote: The fidget animations on Civ 3 units and stuff like that is fine.

Personally, I think that sort of 'dumbs-down' the game and instead of making it seem like a wargame/TBS-builder makes it appear more 'kidzy-and-cuddly'... It does add something, I will admit- but it adds more distraction than epic flavor... Instead of making civ epic, it makes it sort of trivial

quote: But like my example earlier, it's when you have little people walking down the streets in cities and individual dudes fighting in battles that you're getting too far away from what Civ really is.

Indeed. Civ is not Shogun:Total War... nor should it be

--

quote: Now, as for the 3D part, I hope all they do is make the terrian look realistic, you know, the roads and railroads don't go through the mountain they go around it, and not all mountains go straight up into a pinnacle, mountains can have forests in real life, and you should be able to chop them down in the game...same with hills. Make it so, even when you look at a mountain range, it actually feels like you're walking through the mountains or something. Not like so extreme that it detracts from the game, but to the point where it invigorates you.

I can actually agree with that suggestion somewhat... I would like terrain like Alpha Centauri, with varying heights... Although honestly, It would be very easy for firaxis to mess this up- since the animations would have to be standing 'in' the mountains to make it work- if they were 'on' the mountains it would look sort of strange- and the mountains couldn't 'hide' the unit or else there would be problems

	24-06-2004 08:37									#46
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quote: Originally posted by DarkCloud Personally, I think that sort of 'dumbs-down' the game and instead of making it seem like a wargame/TBS-builder makes it appear more 'kidzy-and-cuddly'... It does add something, I will admit- but it adds more distraction than epic flavor... Instead of making civ epic, it makes it sort of trivial

Well, that's the sort of thing I'm talking about. Obviously, you can argue the mood being conveyed, but the point is that there is a mood being conveyed (whether you agree with it or not ), rather than something that serves no point.

	24-06-2004 18:10									#47
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The 3D terrain in SMAC was ok for me. What I didn't like was the fact that the tiles looked so similar... (and my eyesight wasn't the best before either)

	24-06-2004 18:29									#48
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quote: quote: The fidget animations on Civ 3 units and stuff like that is fine. Personally, I think that sort of 'dumbs-down' the game and instead of making it seem like a wargame/TBS-builder makes it appear more 'kidzy-and-cuddly'... It does add something, I will admit- but it adds more distraction than epic flavor... Instead of making civ epic, it makes it sort of trivial

I somewhat agree. Obviousely abstracting a unit with one guy of the type is prettier and easier than showing them all, or a few, but given the level of detail they gave to this fella in the latest products, he is hard to see as an abstraction because he became so REAL.

It's almost easier to imagine my Civ III warrior unit as a huge giant walking the land killing stuff with his club than a symol representing many little guys down below.

Doesn't really hurt the gameplay, don't get me wrong, I'm just stating my impression.

	24-06-2004 18:33									#49
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quote: Originally posted by Max Sinister The 3D terrain in SMAC was ok for me. What I didn't like was the fact that the tiles looked so similar... (and my eyesight wasn't the best before either)

The problem with SMAC 3D map is that it is Ill suited for describing earth geography. It was set on an alien planet so it was easy to dismiss its total unrealisticness.

But imagine SMAC map of earth. Did anyone do that btw? I have doubts.

	24-06-2004 20:17									#50
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quote: What I didn't like was the fact that the tiles looked so similar... (and my eyesight wasn't the best before either)

I'll agree- the game was a bit too dark.

quote: The problem with SMAC 3D map is that it is Ill suited for describing earth geography. It was set on an alien planet so it was easy to dismiss its total unrealisticness.

How was it unrealistic? just wondering?

	24-06-2004 21:59									#51
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I think that elevations as SMAC represents them don't scale well for earth.

First, SMAC engine is very unsuitable to show realistic geography. Typical SMAC landscape of rolling hills models them pretty to the eye but way too huge in relation to planet size. Earth's largest mountains are tiny in comparison.

I think we can agree about that - SMAC 3D map is not good for realism. There is the first problem - expectations on realism are much higher for earth than for.. ugh, whatsitsname

So if we can't expect realistic proportions between planet and elevation from SMAC engine, can we at least show realistic proportions between different elevations? Yes, but...

You have to show extremes like Himalayas and sea level ground, and everything inbetween so that it makes sense.

So Alps have to be half as high as Himalayas. But Alps are some serousely high mountains, it's silly to show them as merely slopes. So you have to use SMAC max elevation for them, or near max, they have to look steep, and then you have to be able to double that to show the Himalayas.

All in all, it is fairly easy to accept Civ II tile graphics as abstractions for mountains, but 3D engines simply suggest to the player that objects they show are in proportion.

I don't think it can be done well in SMAC, but I am asking for the earth map in AC-Creation to see for myself, someone probably built it.

	25-06-2004 00:11									#52
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quote: So Alps have to be half as high as Himalayas. But Alps are some serousely high mountains, it's silly to show them as merely slopes. So you have to use SMAC max elevation for them, or near max, they have to look steep, and then you have to be able to double that to show the Himalayas

Well, it depends on the amount of detail that the maps have.

in all honestly, crossing the alps mountains and the himalayas should be much harder than crossing the Urals... and movement costs should reflect that.

nevertheless, there is little need to model Mt. Everest, etc. all you need to do is get a computer terrain maping program and zoom out, then average the mountains' heights and model the terrain at 100 miles=1 square, or something of the sort.

	25-06-2004 03:20									#53
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I've just downloaded an earth map for SMAC, so I'll see how it looks.

	25-06-2004 03:29									#54
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I'd be more interested in seing Earth graphics for SMAC

	25-06-2004 18:12									#55
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Maybe it would be enough to make the Himalaya bigger than the Alps to reflect that an army going through it has a harder way?

	26-06-2004 07:35									#56
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DarkCloud et al, I've started another thread solely for 3D map discussion. I think I've explained it better there.

	26-06-2004 14:29									#57
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I'm not so worried about 3D as it's a group I think I'm better off trusting until I see evidence of suckitude, basically, give them a chance. They tried 3d with SMAC, and while that might not be the best for Earth it has been quite a few years since SMAC and technology has continued it's forward march. As stated above, a well implimented change to 3d will be more than welcome, as it will make the game more enjoyable, and help with competeing in the marketplace.

I can see the point about simplification, but that is the more worrisome point. Civ3 is simpler - almost too simple. Cutting pollution and corruption and such isn't neccisarily the way to go.

	26-06-2004 22:28									#58
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I liked the SMAC graphics a lot, and I think they worked well for SMAC, but I'd agree that something similar isn't suitable for Civ. Much better to have a terrain type labeled "Mountain" than a 3500m, rocky, arid tile.

Anyways, what I'd like to see in Civ4 is a combat system that resembles that in SMAC. At the bottom of the screen, it gives a summary of all the bonuses and penalties each unit receives, and tallies up their total strength. In order to do something like that though, you'd have to devote the bottom of the screen to a console-kinda thing like SMAC has, and people complain about clutter when they've got something like that.

Then again, if I had my way, the whole game would just be SMAC on Earth, with different graphics and a better AI

	27-06-2004 12:28									#59
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I'm curious to know how they will implement religion. I assume they will include real religions like Islam and Buddhism but perhaps they will use abstract religions to avoid offending people. And I wonder what sort of benefits and disadvantages the religions will give the civs.

As for 3D, I qould love to see the battles done a la Total War but this wouldn't work for PBEM, which is what I play mostly.

	27-06-2004 12:34									#60
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quote: Originally posted by Solver Oh, and if Civ 4 was to be released this year, it would have a ton of problems. The main thing to do is to make sure that the game is not hurried or under too much time pressure, which means not releasing it this year, obviously.

well said old chap

and thanks Locutus for the thread and powerpoint show.