20-06-2004 19:00									#1
	What's in Civ4. Just the facts, ma'am. Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

NOTE: THIS THREAD IS NOW OBSOLETE
Go here instead.





Last update: May 17, 2005.

Update: added info from 6 E3 screenshots posted by IGN, as well as the official 2K Games website. Note that many more updates are likely to follow in the next few days because of E3. I'll be marking them in orange.


Introduction

In this thread I will keep an overview of all the facts about what Civilization IV will be like: what features it will have, what civs, units, techs, etc will be included, what design principles it willl follow, etc. Note that this thread will focus on facts, not rumours or speculation, though so long before release the line between these things is often thin. Even if something is true, the development team may still change their minds and change it, so inclusion of information in this thread still by no means guarantees its accuracy in the long run. Much information will come from previews, magazine features, etc. The past has proven that such sources often offer as much nonsense as actual accurate information. However, aside from the Firaxis website and posts by Firaxians on forums such as this one, they are pretty much the only sources of information we have and can therefore not be ignored. If I have doubts about the accuracy of certain information but it still seems to come from a reliable source, I will post it here but will list the source along with the information (but when there are several sources it should be safe to assume the information is accurate).

The main source of information about Civ4 for this thread is the presentation Soren Johnson gave on the Game Developers Conference of 2004, of which the slides (with notes) are available online (requires MS Powerpoint). Other important sources are two preview features in both the US and UK versions of the magazine PC Gamer, one in Game Informer, another in PC Zone, one in Computer Gaming World and one in Computerbildspiele (in German) (the articles themselves are unfortunately not available online). The remaining sources are mentioned along with the information.

In the future, the official website of 2K Games will probably become an important source of information as well.

Jump to:
General Design (Last Update: 2005-01-24)
Development (Last Update: 2005-05-05)
Fan Input (Last Update: 2005-01-24)
Gameplay (Last Update: 2005-05-17)
- Religion (Last Update: 2005-05-17)
- Civics (Last Update: 2005-05-06)
- Great People (Last Update: 2005-05-14)
- Combat/Units (Last Update: 2005-05-17)
- More Fun/Health (Last Update: 2005-05-14)
- Technology (Last Update: 2005-05-14)
- Game Length & Victory Types (Last Update: 2005-05-01)
- Civilizations (Last Update: 2005-05-17)
- Terrain (Last Update: 2005-05-17)
- Cities (Last Update: 2005-05-06)
- Trade (Last Update: 2005-05-14)
Graphics and UI (Last Update: 2005-05-17)
AI (Last Update: 2005-05-05)
Multiplayer (Last Update: 2005-05-17)
Moddability (Last Update: 2005-05-01)
Release Date (Last Update: 2005-01-26)
Screenshots (Last Update: 2005-05-17)



General Design - Back to intro

Civ4 is part of the Civilization franchise, and a franchise can usually only be successful if it makes conservatively changes between iterations. So Civ4 will not be extremely different from Civ3, it will be another conservative sequel. According to Soren Johnson, a good rule of thumb for a franchise is "1/3 old, 1/3 improved, 1/3 new". He thinks that the best way to improve on Civ3, is to choose a focus and really improve the game in only a single (or a few) area(s), rather than trying to change a little bit of everything.

Soren also points out that genres/franchises that get increasingly complex tend to die out as they become accessible only for the real hard-core fans, no longer for casual gamers (example: flight simulator games). Soren thinks that RTS games are heading in this direction. To prevent Civilization from making the same mistake, Civ4 will not be condiserably more complex or bigger than Civ3 -- only different. Also, it will aim at a slightly different fan-base than previous Civ-games, though it should still appeal to (most) veterans as well.

One of the key phrases for Civ4 will be "Simplify, simplify, simplify", which means as much as streamlining the existing gameplay where possible.

Civ4 will "borrow" successful elements from other strategy games, though it is not clear at this point exactly what it will be borrowed or from which games.

Finally, Soren notes that Civ3 was under too much time-pressure to really make it what Firaxis wanted it to be in terms of MP, modding, etc, but he is confident that Civ4 will make significant improvements in this respect: "Civ4 is very much a maturation of the franchise".


Development - Back to intro

Development on Civilization IV has been underway since at least 2004, though mostly likely started somewhere in 2003. The GDC where Soren Johnson gave his presentation was held in February 2004 and in it Soren noted that at that point Firaxians were playing the game in their free time, which indicates that it must have been under development for some time then already.

According to Atari (as reported by HomeLAN Fed), they will not be publishing Civ4. Update 2005-01-26: The new publisher will be 2K Games, the publishing label of Take-Two Interactive Software. In their official announcement of the deal with Firaxis, Take-Two said that they will be publishing multiple Firaxis titles, including Civilization IV and expansion packs.

The Civ4 engine is being coded entirely from scratch. This in contrast to Civ3, which was based on a modified version of the SMAC engine. The advantages of a new engine include that the game will now be fully 3D, it will support multiplayer from the beginning and be very mod-friendly.

Every Civ game has a different lead designer to ensure freshness. After Sid Meier, Brian Reynolds and Jeff Briggs, it is now Soren Johnson's turn: he will be the lead designer and overall project lead for Civ4. Update 2005-05-01: Sid Meier is also involved in the project, but only as 'spiritual leader': he's there "to represent the tradition and what made the game fun for the last 15 years" (Sid's own words).

Following is an overview of all known members of the Civilization IV development team (based on the biographies on the Firaxis website). Update 2005-05-05: A radio interview indicates that there are roughly 15 people working on Civ4, so this list should be more or less complete (presumably this is the core team that works on the game full-time; most game productions involve hundreds of people, but many only for 'minor' issues such as QA testing, etc). These people in total will invest millions of hours of manpower in Civ4. The team:

Sid Meier - Update 2005-05-01: Spiritual Leader

Jesse Smith - Producer
Dan Magaha - Producer(?)

Soren Johnson - Lead Designer, Project Lead
Paul Murphy - Designer
Jacob Solomon - Designer

Mustafa Thamer - Lead Programmer
Patrick Dawson - Programmer (interface and MP, "key team member")
Eric Macdonald - Programmer
Dan McGarry - Programmer
Bart Muzzin - Programmer

Steve Ogden - Lead Artist
Dorian Newcomb - Artist
Megan Quinn - Artist
Update 2005-05-05: Nick Rusko-Berger - Artist (lead artist on Civ3)

Michael Curran - Sound Designer

Andy Szybalski - Programmer Intern (for 4 months)
Tom Symonds - Artist Intern


Fan Input - Back to intro

In his GDC presentation, Soren Johnson mentions The List for Civ3, noting that with its 200,000 words it's about 25,000 words longer than the New Testament. This means he's familiar with this list and therefore the wishes of the fan community. What's more, Soren repeatedly posted in this very forum to indicate that he was keeping track of the developments of The List for Civ IV, and after its completion in January 2005 he said: "[W]ell, I`ve looked through much of the list and it`s nice to know that many of your suggestions are already in the game. I`ll keep my eye out for other ideas which will fit Civ4...".


Gameplay - Back to intro

A few "killer features" will be added to the game that will appeal to (almost) everyone. Three such features are known at this point: religion, civics and Great People.


Religion - Back to intro

Update 2005-03-21: Religion will spread through your lands and offer myriad tools to control your people more effectively and keep them happier. At some point you’ll even be able to create Great Prophets to act as immortal icons to the devout. Update 2005-05-05: According to Computerbildspiele, Prophets can give you information about foreign countries and their cities. The religion of a city will be visible on the main map.

Update 2005-05-01(c): Religions will have an impact on diplomacy and allow you to build certain buildings and units such as Temples, Monestaries and Missionaries, and they are also "associated with certain technologies". Update 2005-05-05: This means that the first civilization to discover a certain technology founds a world religion. For instance, the first player to discover the Polytheism advance founds Hinduism. Update 2005-05-06: Once a religion is founded in a certain city, it will gradually spread all over the world from there. Update 2005-05-06: Converting to a religion gives +1 Happiness in every city that has that religion (but at the cost of 1 turn of Anarchy). So the player can choose a 'state religion', resulting in certain benefits for cities with that religion, but not all cities in the empire may actually have the state religion -- there can be 'minority religions' as well, which don't get a happiness bonus (e.g. I reckon that conquered cities would typically have minority religions). It's always possible to change religion. Update 2005-05-17: One city can have more than one religion.

Update 2005-05-01(b): Different religions will not have unique bonuses each, they will be generic in ability (to prevent controversy). The game will be about having a religion, it doesn't matter which one it is.

Update 2005-05-05: On the issue of religions and diplomacy, PC Zone says that:

quote: [...] allying yourself to a certain religion will enable you to curry favour with other like-minded peoples. They're not as stupid as you might assume though, and come fully equipped with a tangible memory. As such, suddenly converting to the same religion will not cut the mustard. As one of the dev team succinctly explained: "They'll be like, 'where were you a thousand years ago?'"

Update 2005-05-05: There will be 7 religions in the game, the following 4 have been confirmed:
* Christianity
* Buddhism (founded at Meditation)
* Hinduism (founded at Polytheism)
* Islam
* Update 2005-05-17: Judaism


Civics - Back to intro

Update 2005-03-21: Moving up the tech tree will unlock Civics options like free speech and slavery, which will have far-reaching consequences for your entire domain (source: Game Informer). Update 2005-05-01(b): This Civics system comes instead of set government types as in Civ1-3, it will work much like Social Engineering in SMAC. Examples of Civics are: Free Market, Environment, Slavery, Free Speech, Conscription, Emancipation, Religious Tolerance. Update 2005-05-06: There will be a total of 25 Civics.


Great People - Back to intro

Update 2005-05-14: There are 5 categories of Great People: Artists, Merchants, Prophets, Engineers and Scientists. According to PC Zone, these are triggered by city performance in each category. There are 3 or 4 benefits for each Great Person, and these benefits include culture boost, academies, multiple golden ages, free techs, trade missions. Great Persons are actual units that can be moved on the map. They are invisible to all units and have a movement factor of 2. Some of the included Great Persons are: Plato, Shakespeare, Newton, Einstein, Michalangelo, Aretas III (king of the trade empire of Petra).


Combat/Units - Back to intro

Other new features include the introduction of more sophisticated RPG-like concept of unit experience and Promotions. Individual units will gain experience and acquire new Promotion upgrades such as bonuses against specific enemy types and the ability to use enemy roads, (Update 2005-05-01:) bonuses while attack in cities and the ability to move faster in forests. Experience is gained through combat, where tougher battles lead to more experience. The result is that you can end up with high-level units with specific abilities. Update 2005-05-05: There are a total of 41 different types of Promotions.

It has also been reported that the combat model has been tweaked such that the ancient Spearman vs Tank problem will no longer occur in Civilization 4. Update 2005-05-01(b): Combat will also be changed in other ways. There are no longer separate attack and defense strengths. Units will now have one single base strength that are increased or diminished in certain situations (for example, infantry will have defensive bonuses in difficult terrain, while cavalry will have an advantage attacking ranged units such as archers). Update 2005-05-01(c): The amount of damage that a unit does is dependent on this strength value (which more or less represents firepower from Civ2). Artillery/Siege units will be stronger and will allow for damaging all of the units in a stack. These changes are supposedly done to encourage use of combined arms. Soren points out that combat in Civ4 is not more or less complex than in Civ3, but it is significantly different.

Update 2005-05-01(b): You will be able to create armies in Civ4 by stacking single units together. It is not clear whether these armies are just for moving around (as in Civ3) or also for coordinated combat (as in CtP). Update 2005-05-05: There is no limit to the maximum size of armies.

Update 2005-05-01: Some of the units in the game (11 so far):
* Archer
* Update 2005-05-17: Camel Archer
* Chariot
* Update 2005-05-14: Crossbowman (Strength: 6, Movement: 1)
* Galley
* Knight
* Update 2005-05-17: Legion?
* Missionary (requires a religion)
* Update 2005-05-04: Pikemen
* Update 2005-05-17: Settler
* Spearman (Strengh: 4, Movement: 1, 100% bonus against horse units)
* Update 2005-05-17: Swordsman?
* Warrior
* Worker

Update 2005-05-05: Computerbildspiele reports that there will be 83 units in total. Update 2005-05-01: All units are of a specific combat type, e.g. a Spearman is a Melee unit.

Update 2005-05-04: The Barbarians will also attack with animals, (Update 2005-05-05: ) such as Lions.


More Fun/Health - Back to intro

Firaxis plans to kill "unfun" elements: pollution ("whack-a-mole"), rioting, corruption, maintenance, etc. These will be replaced by more entertaining concepts that maintain game balance. The only replacement concept that we know of at this point is Health. Soren Johnson posted the following information about it:

quote: There seems to have been a lot of consternation about the "get rid of unfun elements" quote. Perhaps I should clarify. We have identified the game pieces of Civ which have caused the most user annoyances (pollution, corruption, etc.). Instead of trying to band-aid these problems, we are mostly tossing them out and implementing better systems that will require less micro-management, provide better high-level control, and still create interesting gameplay challenges. Pollution, for example, is being replaced by a more comprehensive "Health" system which has a large variety of positive and negative influences. There is no need to go into detail yet - even though I am sure you can imagine some of the factors - the important point is that we aren't just chucking the whole thing. The take-home here is that we understand that cleaning-up pollution is not fun. We can fix that!

Update 2005-05-14: Units are able to report the level of 'fresh water' in a tile, a factor which may well impact the health of a city.


Technology - Back to intro

The tech tree has been changed to allow radically different research paths to the same high-level technologies. Now you won’t have to follow a strict research path to be competitive later in the game – a design that opens up a whole new world of possibilities. Update 2005-05-01(b): The tech tree is now much more flexible and allows civs to develop more uniquely than in earlier incarnations of Civ. Update 2005-05-06: Different paths to the same tech means literally just that. E.g. you can reach Chemistry by researching various 'industrial' advances, or you can reach it by researching 'scientific' advances. So the tech tree has OR-gates as well as the traditional AND-gates.

Update 2005-05-05: It has also been reported that the game will include more technologies, 85 in total according to Computerbildspiele. Update 2005-05-01: The tech tree is not divided up in seperate eras. Update 2005-05-05: The following 29 technologies have been confirmed to be in the game (source: mostly Computerbildspiele). Update 2005-05-06:
* Agriculture
* Alphabet (leads to Literature, Drama)
* Update 2005-05-14: Bronze Working
* Calendar (requires Mathematics, unknown advance)
* Chemistry (requires Metal Casting)
* Civil Services (requires Code of Law, Feudalism)
* Code of Laws (requires Currency, two unknown advances, leads to Civil Services, Philosophy)
* Compass (leads to Optics)
* Construction (requires Mathematics, uknown advance, leads to Engineering)
* Currency (requires Mathematics, leads to Code of Law)
* Drama (requires Alphabet, leads to Music, Philosophy
* Engineering (requires Construction, unknown advance)
* Feudalism (requires 2 unknown advances, leads to Civil Services)
* Fishing
* Hunting
* Literature (requires Polytheism, Alphabet, leads to Music)
* Machinery (requires Metal Casting, leads to Optics, unknown advance)
* Masonry
* Mathematics (leads to Calendar, Construction, Currency)
* Meditation (gives Buddhism)
* Metal Casting (enables Forge, 'Build a Workshop', leads to Machinery, Chemistry)
* Mining
* Monarchy
* Monotheism (requires Polytheism)
* Music (requires Literature, Drama)
* Optics (requires Machinery, Compass)
* Philosophy (requires Drama, Code of Law)
* Polytheism (enables Parthenon wonder, gives Hinduism, leads to Priesthood, Monotheism, Literature)
* Priesthood (requires Polytheism)
* Theology

Update 2005-05-06: The image below shows a portion of the tech tree, based on a copyrighted screenshot which is not allowed to be reproduced here. The techs with a * behind the name require an additional tech besides the one listed, a tech which is located on a different part of the tech tree and therefore not visible. Only an icon is shown. It could be that these icons indicate aforementioned OR-gates rather than the traditional AND-gates. So for example Engineering might require either Construction or something yet unknown advance. But this is speculation.




Game Length & Victory Types - Back to intro

Update 2005-05-01(c): The length of the game will be reduced compared to Civ3: from 550 to 400 turns. There will be three modes of play: Fast (can be finished in a few hours, mostly intended for MP), Normal (15-20 hours worth of gameplay according to PC Zone, somwhat shorter than Civ3 according to Soren) and Epic (takes a very long time according to PC Zone, somewhat longer than Civ3 according to Soren). These modes can be edited in XML and new modes created: "and of course, it's all configurable via xml, so you can have whatever speed you like. (or some weird hybrid... you could make unit construction really fast but building construction really slow...)". The starting era can also be set. Update 2005-05-05: There will be 5 victory types: Spaceship (same as Civ3), Conquest (same as all Civ games), Domination (same as Civ3), Culture (3 cities with near-perfect culture) and Diplomacy (same as Civ3).


Civilizations - Back to intro

The game will feature new civilizations, though no details are known on which ones (or which ones they may or may not replace). Update 2005-03-21: There will be a total of 19 civilizations. Update 2005-05-01: There will also be 28 leaders and traits are associated with these leaders rather than with civs. Update 2005-05-06: The leaders are fixed to a civ, so some civs will have one and others two leaders. E.g. if you play with the Germans, you can only play with Bismarck as leader, but with the Americans you have a choice between Washington and Roosevelt. The following 10 Civs are confirmed to be in the game:
* Americans (leaders: Washington, Roosevelt, capital: ?, flag: ?)
* Arabs (leader(s): ?, capital: Mecca, flag: ?)
* Aztecs (leader: Montezuma, capital: ?, flag: ?)
* Chinese (leader(s): ?, capital: Beijing; flag: pink with an unknown yellowish figure)
* Egyptians (leader(s): ?, capital: Thebes; flag: yellow with a blue Eye of Horus)
* Update 2005-05-17: English (leader(s): ?, capital: London, flag: ?)
* Germans (leader: Bismarck, capital: Update 2005-05-17: Berlin, flag: ?)
* Indians (leader: Ghandi, capital: ?, flag: light purple with a deep purple Dhamra Chakra symbol as on the modern Indian flag)
* Japanese (leader(s): ?, capital: Kyoto; flag: white with a red dot, like the modern Japanese flag)
* Mongols (leader: Genghis Khan, capital: ?, flag: ?)
* Update 2005-05-14: Persians (leader: Cyrus, capital: ?, flag: light blue with a black scimitar)
* Update 2005-05-17: Russians (leader(s): ?, capital: Moscow, flag: orange with a black Russian (double-headed) eagle)
* Update 2005-05-17: Spanish (leader(s): ?, capital: Madrid, flag: ?)


Terrain - Back to intro

Update 2005-03-21: The game will also feature more terrain improvements and resources. Update 2005-05-01: PC Zone reports that the maps feature pastures, wineries, watermills and windmills (Update 2005-05-04:) and proto-factories, presumably these are terrain improvements. Update 2005-05-06: Certain technologies increase the output of terrain improvements. Update 2005-05-01(b): All resources in the game will offer distinct terrain improvements. Screenshots feature workers, so the placement of terrain improvements presumably hasn't changed from Civ3 (i.e. no PW-like system as in CtP). Update 2005-05-06: There will be a total of 31 resources, of which the following 15 (mostly based on screenshots):
* Bananas
* Cactus? (or something that looks like it)
* Clams? (or something that looks like it)
* Update 2005-05-14: Cows
* Deer
* Dye
* Elephants
* Fish
* Gold
* Horses
* Update 2005-05-17: Iron?
* Papyrus? (or something that looks like it)
* Pigs
* Rice
* Sheep
* Whales
* Wheat

Cities - Back to intro

Update 2005-05-01: There is no hard limit on the number of cities you can have. Update 2005-05-04: Cities still exist in the same form as in previous Civ games, and cultural borders exist as well, as in Civ3. Update 2005-05-05: According to Computerbildspiele, there will be a total of 102 buildings in CIV and 30 wonders. Some wonders have the ability to give you a golden age. Update 2005-05-06: Among the wonders will be the Parthenon (requires Polytheism) and among the buildings a Temple and a Monestary (both require a religion).


Trade - Back to intro

Update 2005-05-04: A Caravan/Merchant unit has been spotted, which might indicate trading requires bulding and moving units on the map again (source: PC Zone screenshot).

Update 2005-05-14: Soren himself denied that this is the case:

quote: the unit you see there is not a Civ2 caravan-type unit. It is a Great Person (specifically a Merchant). It does have some Trade Mission functionality, but you can't just build these units, so micro-management is not really a problem.

Graphics and User Interface - Back to intro

The game will provide a "continuous, immersive 3D world (what-you-see-is-what-you-get)". Update 2005-05-06: This means that Civ4 will be fully 3D and it has been reported that you will be able to zoom smoothly with your mousewheel from a global (satellite-like) view all the way down to a single city and even individual buildings in that city. Update 2005-05-04: City improvements and wonders will be visible on the main map. Update 2005-05-01: Different screenshots also seem to indicate that angle, pitch and zoom of the game can all be set by the user, as all screenshots have been taking from wildly varying angle, pitch and zoom. Update 2005-05-06: The map is very much 'alive' and animated: resources such as horses and whales are animated, rivers can be seen flowing, smoke is billowing from chimneys.

Update 2005-03-08: All this will be accomplished using the Gamebryo 3D engine developed by NDL. This is the second game for which Firaxis uses this engine: they used it for Sid Meier's Pirates! as well. Other strategy titles that have used this engine include Empire Earth II, Axis & Allies and Kohan II: Kings of War. You can see some screenshots from various games that have or will use this engine on the Gamebryo website.

Update 2005-05-05: Movies return in Civ4, and will be triggered when your civilization does something significant, such as building a wonder. There will be 90 of them in total, according to Computerbildspiele.

Update 2005-05-04: Information on whether square (a la Civ1) or diamond (a la Civ2/3) shaped tiles will be used is contradictory, but condisering the view can be rotated freely it doesn't really matter.

Based on screenshots, it also seems that Civ4 will use multi-unit graphics to represent the units in the game, as e.g. Rise of Nations does as well. Update 2005-05-04: These units will carry unique flags to indicate to what civ they belong. Update 2005-05-05: The Barbarians appear be to recognizable by a pirate flag. Update 2005-05-06: The flags of playable civs are described in the section Civilizations.

Update 2005-05-06: There exists an option to label resources to make them easier to spot, this mode can be toggled on and off at any point. So no more scrutinisingly scrolling over the entire map to find that one source of Iron source you need...

Update 2005-05-17: The global/satellite view shows the map as an actual round, earh-like map. In this view, there is an option to label units (in the same way as can be done with resources), so they visible from such a large distance as well.

According to Soren Johnson, Civ4 will use "modern" interface and help screen conventions (own conclusion: modern = RTS-like?). Update 2005-03-21: "A more intuitive, streamlined interface that should be familiar to any RTS player is being implemented." Update 2005-05-01(b): The switch to 3D allows the interface to be streamlined: for example, all of the information about a city, its buildings, and workforce is now all accessible from the main screen. Update 2005-05-17: From screenshots, it appears that the following information about cities will be visible on the main map: name, size, defensive bonuses, item under production (both as graphic and as text) and two bars most likely indicating growth and production progress. The capital is marked with a big star.


AI - Back to intro

Update 2005-05-01(b): Soren says that he is spending much of his time now on improving the AI. One goal is to have rulers with distinct personalities: i.e. Gandhi will be generous to weaker nations, while the Khan will shy away from any diplomacy at all. Update 2005-05-05: If your own actions in the game don't reflect the worldview of these leaders, they will get very angry at you.

Update 2005-05-01(b): Also, governors to auto-manage cities will be improved.



Multiplayer - Back to intro

Civ4 will support Multiplayer from the outset. Soren mentioned that at the time of his GDC presentation (February 2004), Firaxis had a working MP system already and the Firaxians have been playing 4+ hour games after work. Update 2005-05-01: PC Zone reports that Firaxians weekly play MP games on Wednesday nights.

It has also been reported that there will be many forms to play the game in MP. You will be able to play everything from quick games to advanced games that can last for months. Update 2005-05-01: Among the many forms of MP that Civ4 will include are LAN, Internet, PBEM (Play By Email) and a form which takes place "on a persistent turn-based server".

You will be able to team up in co-op mode against the AI or other teams of players. Update 2005-05-01(b): Co-op mode means that several players run the same nation together.

Update 2005-05-17: Another feature, that's available for both MP ans SP, is team play:

quote: Whether playing multiplayer or single player, team play offers a new way of setting locked alliances that result in shared wonder effects, visibility, unit trading, and shared territory that delivers a plethora of new strategic and tactical options.

A random-map generator ensures an equal start for all players.


Moddability - Back to intro

Firaxis seems to be going through considerable lengths to make the game *extremely* moddable: all in-game data will be stored in XML, nothing will be hardcoded! Also, the engine has Python (a very powerful scripting language) integrated in it, opening up things like map generation, combat, triggers/events, etc to fans. It has been reported that with the new modding tools modders will have no trouble at all creating their own personalized worlds, units, technologies, and historical events. Advanced modders will even be able to control the AI. Update 2005-03-21: Firaxis claims that mods up to and including full conversions will be possible. Update 2005-05-01: PC Zone reports that the game will also include an Software Development Kit (SDK), though it is not explained what is meant by this. Update 2005-05-01(b): Computer Gaming World reports there will also be an "editor with Python and XML".

If you don't know what all that means, suffice to say that this, if true, is every mod/scenario-maker's wet dream!


Release date - Back to intro

Often seen as the most important information for a yet-to-be-released title but also notoriously unreliable is the release date. Since this thread focuses on facts, there probably won't be much to say about this until at least the summer, if not later. Any specific date you encounter before then, unless it comes directly from the mouth of a Firaxis employee, should be regarded a rumour and almost certainly incorrect. The exact date most likely won't be announced until a few weeks before release (simply because it won't be decided before then). However, there are a lot of rumours about the game's release date already and they all point to the same thing: the release will be in late 2005 or early 2006. Update 2005-01-26: Take-Two Interactive, the publisher of Civilization IV, has confirmed that the release date will be late 2005.


Screenshots - Back to intro

Update 2005-03-21: There are currently a number of screenshots known of the game, but all from various magazine previews. These are copyrighted images and are not allowed to be reproduced on Apolyton without permission from the magazines. Update 2005-05-05: However, you can still find them online here. It should be noted though that some of those screenshots are *very* old and *very* poor in quality. It is hoped and expected that 'online' screenshots will come available soon.

In case that site goes down, you can see what is presumably the logo for Civilization 4 on the cover of PC Zone magazine here.

Update 2005-05-17: The first 6 online screenshots have been posted! You can view them at IGN. There are 4 ingame screenshots, 1 concept art image and 1 image that seems like it will be the box art (the Great Pyramid of Khufu (at Giza) under construction).

	20-06-2004 23:53									#2
	Full PM-box? Change here!

quote: Regarding MP: Soren noted that at the time of his presentation (last February), Firaxis had a working MP system already and the Firaxians have been playing 4+ hour games after work. I'd say this is very good news for the MP community indeed!

Civ 4 will be released in 2004
Mark my words.

Very promising, everything!
Soren is the right guy to do it! He has been very often on the boards, and knows what we want.
You can read that in this ppt as well.

The things he says in this ppt make sence.
Way to go Soren!!

	21-06-2004 01:10									#3
	Suffering from ads?

quote: Originally posted by CyberShy Civ 4 will be released in 2004 Mark my words.

Care to make a wager on that?

	21-06-2004 01:56									#4
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

quote: Originally posted by Locutus Care to make a wager on that?

Nope

	21-06-2004 02:28									#5
	Re: What's in Civ4. Just the fact, ma'am. Put an end to popups!

quote: After reardng all this, even I can't help but getting awfully excited about this game!

You beat me by a couple hours, I was going to post "SHOCKING NEWS: SOREN REVEALS CIV IV SECRETS"


Anyway, I think this is the key part

quote: A few "killer features" will be added to the game that will appeal to (almost) everyone. Two such features are mentioned: religion and civics.

Triple WOW.

I am also happy they will go 3D. I'm somewhat of a hardliner when it comes to Civ terrain and I don't think 3D will make gameplay any better but:

- I really hate Civ III terrain graphics

- It's about time for some innovation


And another thing. Soren seems to be pretty certain of what he is doing. Perhaps we could see if he would like some more directed input?

It seems obsolete to write proposals about unit maintenance and corruption with this information, so perhaps The List makers should put more effort on religion and civics?

Anyway, I know Soren sometimes visits Apolyton, it would be great if he stopped by to give some directions.

	21-06-2004 02:40									#6
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quote: More sophisticated RPG-like concepts of unit experience and upgrades will be introduced.

This is not Heroes of Might and Magic. Civ and RPG won't mix, mark my words.

	21-06-2004 02:51									#7
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I agree. RPG elements such as unit experience aren't really relevant to civ. So what if the Queens Dragoon Guards won an epic battle of heroic proportions 300 years ago? All those soldiers are dead now, and their experience isn't really relevant anymore.

Perhaps we should say that any unit automatically loses a level of experience every 20 turns?

	21-06-2004 03:32									#8
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Civ's always had unit experience... remember veteran units vs. green units... remember Alpha Centauri, I see no problems.

quote: So what if the Queens Dragoon Guards won an epic battle of heroic proportions 300 years ago? All those soldiers are dead now,

In real life, units like the Green Berets and Delta Forces and the 108th Airborne are 'elite' units that stay throughout time (at least 100 years)... and besides- civ is abstract.

Upgrades just seems to be a unit-workshopesque thing... replacing arquebuses with muskets, etc.

	21-06-2004 11:32									#9
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What's civics?
That english word doesn't ring any bell in my dutch mind....

	21-06-2004 12:41									#10
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Civics is a social science dealing with the rights and duties of citizens. In Dutch: "burgerlijk recht" (or in a Civ context presumably "burgerrechten").

What exactly it entails and how it will work in the game we won't know until Firaxis decides to give us a little more info, as I've never seen the concept in a game before...

	21-06-2004 13:13									#11
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ok, thanks.
I hope they'll come with better concepts for religion and civics than they came with culture.
Eventhough culture is still a lot of fun, and indeed a killer-feature of civ3, I think it's too poorly implemented.

	21-06-2004 14:20									#12
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quote: Originally posted by DarkCloud Civ's always had unit experience... remember veteran units vs. green units... remember Alpha Centauri, I see no problems. In real life, units like the Green Berets and Delta Forces and the 108th Airborne are 'elite' units that stay throughout time (at least 100 years)... and besides- civ is abstract. Upgrades just seems to be a unit-workshopesque thing... replacing arquebuses with muskets, etc.

Experience gained in combat only lasts a generation. The extra power of these elite units would be better reflected as different unit types, with higher stats and possibly higher maintenance.

There is becoming elite through combat experience; that lasts until the current generation of soldiers retires. And there is becoming elite through having greater support resources thrown at the unit. In the case of those named units you mention, it is almost always through having better resources. This would more realistically be represented as a different unit type.

I concede that unit experience is here to stay regardless, and I won't be upset if it remains, I just don't think it is the best way to represent units that are elite through having greater resources thrown at them.

	21-06-2004 16:15									#13
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quote: Originally posted by VetLegion quote: More sophisticated RPG-like concepts of unit experience and upgrades will be introduced. This is not Heroes of Might and Magic. Civ and RPG won't mix, mark my words.

When you borrow a RPG concept you don't make the game RPG.

	21-06-2004 16:48									#14
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3D another one ruined.

	21-06-2004 18:07									#15
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How can you have an opinion on that while you haven't even seen it yet

	21-06-2004 18:08									#16
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Beat me too, I am pretty excited but have some concerns at this time.

Removal of pollution and such stuff seems great. Though I could argue they could go and improve the model instead of removing it - but that sounds good, still. As for removal of key strategy defining things such as riots or maintenance, I only want to hope that they will find decent concepts to replace them with.

3D stuff is concerning me somewhat. I hope that Civ 4 will remain just as easy to view as previous games. Also, system requirements - one thing I've always loved about Civ were the low requirements. I've played Civ 3 on comps as weak as 400 MHz with 64 MB RAM, and it was fine - sure, longer turn and loading times, but it was just fine. I hope that CIv 4 will also be able to run on what's a lower-end machine by when it comes out. Though my next computer upgrade is scheduled for a year from now, approximately, so if they get it released at the end of 2005, I'll have a comp that's 4-6 months old.

Borrowing of RPG concepts. Well, let's see how they handle it... I liked it perfectly the way unit experience was in SMAC. If they're going to do anything like warcraft or HoMM, I may be a bit skeptical. But again, this is something that can be done very well, too.

Civics and religion - .

The decision to have Soren as the lead designer - while (1) printf(""); - Soren is a great member of the team, and did amazing work on Civ 3.

The interface - us experienced civ players aren't as affected, but for newbies a simple interface is good. RoN did it ideally, IMO. As for that "simplify" thing, I hope thta Soren will take it exactly the right way - that is, simplification of unfun concepts and similar, but not a decrease in overall game complexity. I really hope that Firaxis aren't looking to take away that complexity from Civ.

Overall, though, knowing that Soren reads this board and knows what we want, I am sure that my concerns are, just that, unbased concerns, and that the game will be great! I hope that we will see the first screens this year.

Oh, and if Civ 4 was to be released this year, it would have a ton of problems. The main thing to do is to make sure that the game is not hurried or under too much time pressure, which means not releasing it this year, obviously.

	21-06-2004 18:47									#17
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Wooooho! I love what we know so far, although it isn't much. That they are going to do some innovation is just great, I hope it turns out right. Oh, and I really like that they at last will implement religion. That was the one theme in the List that I really burned for making it in Civ3. Hope we get more info soon, 'cause now I am really exited!

	21-06-2004 19:16									#18
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After reading your breakdown Locutus, I have a lot of hope for civ4.

I know a few people will hear the word 'streamline' and automatically think CTP. But this is the one area that civ needs to be improved. It is the main reason why I am not playing civ3 now.

For instance,
Allow a player to merge workers into a locked worker gang for both movement and actual tile improvement construction that gains additional benefits if it is locked. - i.e. 2 workers would halve production time and would also have a percentage chance to knock off another turn off of build time. This would create the incentive to the player to streamline his gameplay without sacrificing the worker-based system.

Same concept with military units - allow players to fight battles with multiple units with one push of a button (and create a combined arms concept with flank and range) and get an additional percentage bonus (either HP, or Attack) if you do so. This system does not require that you put a cap on the total number of units on a tile either (as in CTP)

RP elements can be a good thing - create more Great Leader-type units that will act as generals that give combat-based bonuses, or economic leaders that give ongoing production boosts, or cultural leaders that create civ-wide happiness bonuses, etc...

Religion - definitely needed, given that it's role in history is very profound. You may agree or disagree about it's truth, but you cannot deny that was the driving force of most of the ancient/medieval societies.

They do not have to get rid of pollution, corruption or culture, but they can figure out some way to fix it.

Last edited by hexagonian on 21-06-2004 at 21:03

	21-06-2004 20:51									#19
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I weonder if civics in the game would include some of my suggestions, like internal cultural variation, internal provinces, political parties and internal political leaders. And yes, I know I'm not the only one who suggested any of these.

Removal of pollution, corruption, and riots is good. Removal of maintenance is not. Maintenance of cities, that is. Expenditure of resources by units would be good to remove. Removal of culture is not good.

I hope simplification wouldn't mean less than 40 civs in the initial release, and through expansions I would want that number to increase to at least 60.

Complexity is what makes the game fun.

I'll add my voice saying don't release it this year.

	21-06-2004 22:21									#20
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quote: Originally posted by hexagonian Allow a player to merge workers into a locked worker gang for both movement and actual tile improvement construction that gains additional benefits if it is locked. - i.e. 2 workers would halve production time and would also have a percentage chance to knock off another turn off of build time. This would create the incentive to the player to streamline his gameplay without sacrificing the worker-based system.

If I understood it correctly this would still mean I have to move a lot of units around, not a good idea. If the worker based system should be kept then it needs some improvement, for instance I should be able to set up construction sites, and the workers will find their way on their own to them. This would be like the CTP system but without paying PW, and the tile improvements wouldn't be constructed automaticly, only if a worker would work on it, and of course the more woker the better, in the end it should be like in CTP place the construction site and forget.

quote: Originally posted by hexagonian They do not have to get rid of pollution, corruption or culture, but they can figure out some way to fix it.

I agree, at least for corruption and pollution. For culture I don't know whether I should agree/disagree, because the hundrets of worker bug kept me from getting Civ3. For corruption I can't remember that it is an issure in Civ2, but it is there, it is there in CTP1/2 as well, ok there it is called crime rate, but not such an issure either. Well that might depent on the mod you are playing.

Pollution is managable in Civ2, CTP1 and CTP2, except when I modded the pollution values in CTP2, and if you don't like pollution you can disable it in CTP1 and CTP2. I just checked Civ2 and was surprised that there is the option to win the game by conquest only but no without pollution option.

Well for 3D graphics it could be interesting to be able to rotate the map as long it is birds eye view.

-Martin

	21-06-2004 23:32									#21
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quote: Originally posted by Martin Gühmann If I understood it correctly this would still mean I have to move a lot of units around, not a good idea. If the worker based system should be kept then it needs some improvement, for instance I should be able to set up construction sites, and the workers will find their way on their own to them. This would be like the CTP system but without paying PW, and the tile improvements wouldn't be constructed automaticly, only if a worker would work on it, and of course the more woker the better, in the end it should be like in CTP place the construction site and forget.

I do not think that civ4 would do away with a worker-based setup because it is one of those concepts that, for better or worse, defines what a Sid-based civstyle game is.

As much as I like your idea for the sake of streamlining, it ends up placing too much of the control of tile-based construction into the hands of the computer rather than the player, and AI automation of tasks and decisionmaking is one of those things that most players do not want. If you have multiple tile improvement projects going on, with different times that each project is completed, as well as future plans for new construction and ongoing creation of workers, how is the computer supposed to figure out the most efficient means to complete those projects.

You may decide to start a project in the eastern part of your empire during a turn (and you currently have no workers in that area), so you give the command and some of your workers from the rest of your empire proceed to that location. Then on the following turn, you decide to build another worker in the eastern part of the empire to do the task itself. The creation of that worker will save you time. However, this will change the commands for the rest of the workers, and they end up moving in an alternative direction to another site. Each turn you issue a new command for something else to do, and the poor workers end up pingponging around the empire, wasting time because of the need to move to a new priority site.

Now we can agree that some players do that anyhow, but it is based on the fact that they choose to do that. But if you allow the computer to take control of that part of the game, you cannot stop the inefficent movement because the computer can not know what your long-term plan is. Put it in as an option, and most players would still opt for taking control themselves.

You can program the game to not override a command once it is given to a worker, so it does not get sidetracked, but again, you are removing control from the player's hands.

My solution does not eliminate worker movement, but it does reduce the total number of 'worker entities' within the game. Most players like the aspect of moving a few workers around in the beginning of the game, but it sinks into tedium because your worker pool becomes large and unwieldly when you have to issue commands to each individual worker unit on a turn-by-turn basis.

You can have 100 'single entity' units merged into 20 'workgangs' that give you faster tile creation (with built-in benefits because they are lock-merged). Couple that with the SMAC multitask command feature for tile improvements (move to this spot and build a farm/road with one command) and you have a system that strikes a nice balance between micromanagement and streamlined gameplay.

	22-06-2004 01:44									#22
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Polution in CTP is, IMO, a very good concept. The fact that you start getting pollution before you can fix it makes you want to avoid it, which adds another thing to deal with, which is good .

	22-06-2004 06:11									#23
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quote: How can you have an opinion on that while you haven't even seen it yet

Actually, I'd agree with maquiladora here- 3D just doesn't work in any game other than First PErson Shooters- Neverwinter Nights and D&D were ruined by 3D... Civ looked idiotic in semi-3d and CTP looked idiotic as well. 3d Just doesn't look good on a 2D monitor.

	22-06-2004 10:45									#24
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Civ2/3 and CtP1/2 are about as 2D as 2D comes these days. Whatever you think of their graphics, you can't say 3D is bad because those games are bad.

RoN and the Rome: Total War are 3D and they look great

There are both good and bad 3D games and also both good and bad 2D games. Whether the graphics will look good and whether the graphics are 2D or 3D are two different issues.

Casual gamers (as opposed to us hard-core vets) will expect the game to be 3D and are a lot less likely to buy if it isn't. So if the Civ franchise hopes to survive in the long run, it'll have to adapt.

	22-06-2004 11:33									#25
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As mentioned in another thread, my biggest concerns are two-fold:

1.

quote: One of the key phrases for Civ4 will be "Simplify, simplify, simplify", which means as much as streamlining the existing gameplay where possible.

I hope this does not indicate a further uncomplicating of the game. Simplification in Civ3 killed it for me, though I still say Civ3+Conquests is playable.

I'd like to see them take the phrase "nationalise, nationalise, nationalise", and break away from the city-state methods of present and go towards national methods. I run a COUNTRY, not a group of CITYS!

2.

quote: Civ4 is part of the Civilization franchise, and a franchise can usually only be successful if it makes conservatively changes between iterations. So Civ4 will not be extremely different from Civ3, it will be another conservative sequel. According to Soren, a good rule of thumb for a franchise is "1/3 old, 1/3 improved, 1/3 new".

Civ4 will take the same core-design from Civ1. While it's a great core-design, it does make for the saying, "it's the previous one with prettier graphics". I'd like to see a core-design based not just around wealth creation as is present in Civ, but around the four integral parts of civilisation development: wealth, location, religion/ideology, and plain ol' curiosity. All Civs to date (including my loved CTP1/2) were centralised around the wealth model so whoever held the most money would win. That creates for a boring game in my opinion.

Anyways, that's just how I feel.

	22-06-2004 12:49									#26
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I'm not a big fan of 3D either, but still I insist that we cannot have an opinion on something we haven't seen yet.

Pherhaps they come with a 3D solution we will all love and sets a new standard for the years to come.

	22-06-2004 16:47									#27
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quote: Well for 3D graphics it could be interesting to be able to rotate the map as long it is birds eye view.

Perhaps.

Let's analyze this a bit for the non bird's eye view. And it is high probability it won't be bird's eye because locking it there would take the third dimension out of 3D

First, tiles remain, we can be certain of that, it's an axiom.

Secondly, if we say it would be cool to rotate the map, it implies that some things would only be visible from a certain angle of rotation.

So, some objects on the map could obstruct our view to other objects! If we look at a flat map, obviousely there is nothing to block your view unless we allow that units can be so large that units behind them cannot be seen. Which is really bad I think.

The other possible case is mountains. If mountains can block your view of units behind them, it means your view is too zoomed in.

For me, even Civ III was too zoomed in. Units and tiles were too large and too few of them were visible on screen.

Civ is a strategic game which means that we "float" so high above the ground that we can not see individual flowers in the fields. It should remain so, in fact, it should return to the roots. The trend has been towards much more zoomed in map, all because of extra eye candy it brings.

Because the more zoomed in it is the more 3D makes sense. Zoomed out 3D map looks almost like an ordinary 2D map. Very flat except for shadows that mountains throw. But the joke is on those shadows too, because they can't move. No dynamic shadows . The scope of the game dictates a resolution of 20 years per turn, which doesn't permit for day/night change.

Perhaps the biggest saving grace of 3D is that maybe, hopefully, it will allow us to get rid of the dreaded isometric view that Civ II (or was it CivNet) brought to us because of eye candy and it stuck since. It took much strategy from the game by distorting perception of distances.

	22-06-2004 18:53									#28
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What scares me is "getting rid of unfun elements"- well, loosing is not fun, are we going to get rid of that option?

What will they have to signify revolts, mass unhappiness, corruption and pollution?

I will be honest and say I had little fun when I played China in EU2 and had to deal with 50 years of unbearable messes, little money, endless revolts. But the game overall is still fun, and part of mastering the game is being able to survive those 50 years of chaos.

I don't want civ to be made so player friendly as to be watred down.

Now, when they say religion, what do they mean?

	22-06-2004 20:12									#29
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VetLegion, good points on 3D. I still have to say that Civ 1 had probably the best map view. Civ2 had that isometric view which was really hard to understand for me, I could never tell adjacent tiles... CtP1/2 are easy to undrestand, and are my favorites otherwise - since the units look pretty big and realistic there, it at least looks cool in the moden, though more scrolling is involved. Civ 3 is easy to use, but doesn't show that many tiles at once on 1024x768. SMAC was terrible in that regard. The idea of a 3D map in the sense that tiles have different elevation worked. However, the horrible SMAC graphics made units indistinguishable...

Sure, in games like RoN or AoM, 3D is bound to work, those are RTS games. Same goes for FPS games. As for 3D in a civ game, it can work, of course, but that will require some clever design.

	23-06-2004 00:13									#30
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Religion

I just hope they don't just rename culture to religion


And the 3D part could work... but I've got my doubts about it... When talking about 3D I hope they mean like the terrain style in SMAC, not 3D as in Warcrap 3

...and about rpg? Can't say I'm happy about it... it could change too much... just look at WC3