24-06-2004 16:44									#1
	Alien Artifacts and their uses Increase the size of your Attachments

I was reading the 'You think You Know Everything' PBEM thread in the MP forum, where players post their movements and their reasonings behind them, and I realised that for a long time I have noticed that AAs acquired early in the game are NOT in general used for tech advancement, but more often saved to be used to rush an SP.

Why is this? You can rush SPs with Crawlers or ECs, yet only an AA can give you an instant tech. Is there a reason why people don;t like to use them for this? I can understand reserving them for later in the game when techs are more expensive, but why waste the limited numbers of AAs you get on rushing an SP a little bit?

	24-06-2004 17:22									#2
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AAs can come before crawlers, and in the early game each mineral for rushing SP is improtant.

	24-06-2004 17:24									#3
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Also, unless you are University, you need to build Nodes to make use of them, so they will just sit for turns and turns - better to use them to hurry a SP.

	24-06-2004 18:41									#4
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Often you get more tech than you can capitalize on, so using AAs for minerals helps rebalance that. Also, SPs are now-or-never. Techs are now-or-later. I'd love to make the trade of 1 tech for 1/4 SP more often than I can. Furthermore, AAs give random tech, which is quite a bit less helpful than what you'd choose (assuming directed research). I'd definitely rather have my 50 minerals than Progenitor Psych.

	24-06-2004 19:44									#5
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OTOH, I'd rather have Bioengineering than 50min towards the Cyborg factory. It very much depends on the time frame of the game.

	24-06-2004 19:47									#6
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The first reason for me not to cash AAs in early game for tech is because you don't know what tech it gives you, and if it gives you a tech off your beeline your tech research would actually be delayed instead of advanced. While if you use them for SPs you save crawlers and they can be quite useful in early game too. In the ACDGII Kody delayed the time when Hive build some SPs so that we can use those crawlers as much as we can without giving the SPs to others.

In late stage games however, when your research ability is real high (like 2 or 3 turns per tech) and you don't care that much about tech cost then I'd say it's better to use AAs for tech.

	24-06-2004 20:03									#7
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True, ECs can indeed hurry projects, but remember that the first 10 minerals are very expensive to hurry. So if you have an AA complete the first 50 minerals, in some cases, you can hurry the project that turn, for almost half the cost.

Also, by using less ECs for projects, more ECs can be used to hurry units and facilities. Since technology comes every five turns or so, the "free tech" isn't all that important compared to the other uses. Free techs are great. The Universal Translator isn't a crappy project just because it simply gives you free techs, but since there are better uses of AAs, free techs are considered useless. They're not bad, it's just that, when given other options, they're not always that good.

If you want free techs, probe rape someone like Deidre who is on the other side of the tech tree...

	24-06-2004 20:08									#8
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For me, chaos theory hit the key point in his mention that the tech you get from an AA is random. In the early game in particular

1. beelining to your targets is key and picking up an extra tech can add 5 or 10 turns to your time to acquire your key targets. I have actually considered not popping ANY pods for the fear that they will grant me an unwanted free tech. To be blunt, there is about half the available techs that I don't want before I have IA and a few more I wouldn't take in a trade if you were to offer me the tech and 20 ec and I give nothing.

2. Whether against the AI or other humans, the powergraphs ( even thogh they measure bullcrap)matter and you don't want to be too high until you are ready. Extra techs make you look more powerful than you are since a tech lead is easily lost. Even humans, who know that the powergraph is misleading, can't help but be influenced if they see you shoot ahead. They will trade with each other to "catch up" and once they have, what did the AA gain you really?? Having the most techs is irrelevant, even weakening if you do not have RIGHT techs.

3. A key special project may be the linchpin to a strategy such that whether you get it will determine if the strat is feasible or you have to go another way. Sometimes it is appropriate to sacrifice a lot, including AAs to get that key project


So my personal use of AAs has been as follows:

1. I will cash them toward a key project but only if I can't get it through crawlers ad I would be in danger of losing it otherwise. My key projects vary depending on the faction I am playing and the circumstances although I am a bit of a heretic on this board in that I don't see any project as a total gamebreaker all the time.

2. I will hoard the AAs and wait. I do not want to be the tech leader and so I muddle along in the middle of the pack. The goal is to position yourself in tech parity by trades and stealing. Then when you are ready ( bases well protected and good infrastructure .. . perhaps even accumulating a bit of cash) you cash several AAs on a single turn, all the AAs you have. If timed with a pop boom you might rocket up the power charts. This is particularly effective against the AI since they will suddenly REALIZE how powerful you are and hate you but it will be entirely too late. Humans would have noted your unused AAs and the smart ones would realize the potential but its tough to find good counter measures. You can't steal an opponents technology potential, after all.


Summary

There are lots of times that getting a tech early is BAD. There are so many early techs that you can almost count on getting though trade, theft, gift from submissives or from the datalinks. Do you really want to cash an AA for poly soft ?? Or it might give you applied physics when you have already traded and gotten nonlin maths .. . There is a cost to acquiring techs and if you don't believe me , consder you tech cost when you have 5 techs versus when you have 8 . .. its a scary game-changing difference

	24-06-2004 20:11									#9
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quote: Originally posted by Chaunk OTOH, I'd rather have Bioengineering than 50min towards the Cyborg factory. It very much depends on the time frame of the game.

Perfectly said-- For me once I have sufficient crawlers, I know the AA will be used for tech . . . its just a matter of timing when I want to "tech-boom"

	24-06-2004 22:30									#10
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Hoarding AAs makes sense if you’re using directed research. For those of us that detest directed research there is no reason not to link them immediately to get needed techs. Even when using semi-directed research (as I do) it is often useful to get rid of a tech to ensure your semi-directed objective is more likely to be obtained.

Another problem with hoarding AAs is spoor launchers, and artillery in general. One bombardment will destroy ALL AAs you may have at that base. In the early and mid game this is nothing short of catastrophic. With this in mind NEVER store Aas at a base within 2 hexes of the ocean, or at a base near a fungus field. Keep them safe in a central location. One foil or spoor launcher in an isle (wild or otherwise) can ruin your whole day.

Also, if you have an AA at a base and an enemy destroys your last defender they capture the AA. Note that if they use artillery the AA is destroyed.

For all those Gaians and Cultists, or people who like Green, mindworms will go after AA and love to destroy them, even when paired with a mindworm (who are otherwise ignored). It is really sad when a feral MW attacks your MW, destroying it and your AA in one fell swoop.

To summarize uses for AAs:

* Linking to network node for tech – utility depends on if you’re using directed, semi-directed, or random research
* Cashing for a SP – this is often a good deal since one AA can often be ¼ of the price of the early SPs. This is particularly enticing before industrial automation and supply crawlers are available since Projects take a LONG time at small and medium sized bases with 10 or fewer mineral per turn
* Cashing for prototyping a unit – NEVER do this. It is a huge waste of a AA

Can’t think of any other AA uses.

Hydro

	24-06-2004 23:45									#11
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You can move AAs around, don't forget that...

	24-06-2004 23:49									#12
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Hydro

I learned something new as I never even suspected that an AA in a base would be killed by a single arty barrage. But then again, I would only rarely allow an arty barrage of one of my key bases as in my core, I can generally kill natives as they appear

	25-06-2004 00:22									#13
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Flubber - it only has to happen once and cause an impression. As I recall the artifact in question was destroyed by an isle with a spoor launcher that pulled up to a 'safe' coastal base: end of artifact.

	25-06-2004 01:30									#14
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quote: Originally posted by Hydro Flubber - it only has to happen once and cause an impression.

Ouch-- So true

quote: Originally posted by Hydro As I recall the artifact in question was destroyed by an isle with a spoor launcher that pulled up to a 'safe' coastal base: end of artifact.

So I guess the message is to keep them in interior bases away from the fungus -- or in the midst of your crawler field

	25-06-2004 01:33									#15
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quote: Originally posted by Hydro Hoarding AAs makes sense if you’re using directed research. For those of us that detest directed research there is no reason not to link them immediately to get needed techs. Even when using semi-directed research (as I do) it is often useful to get rid of a tech to ensure your semi-directed objective is more likely to be obtained.

I agree that cashing AA for tech makes more sense using blind research but I still think I might delay a bit. Cashing early might garner a good tech but maybe not and either way, you have increased the tech cost of subsequent techs

	25-06-2004 02:22									#16
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Well but your subsequent tech also increases your tech cost. In blind research I think you just can't think about tech cost too much and all you can do is hope for good luck.

You can at least set a reseach direction though. And AAs might give you a tech that is not your intended direction. So it may still have a small difference I suppose.

	25-06-2004 03:04									#17
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quote: Originally posted by HongHu Well but your subsequent tech also increases your tech cost. In blind research I think you just can't think about tech cost too much and all you can do is hope for good luck.

Perhaps true but I think of it this way . . .


many techs an AA will give you will be somewhat unwanted or would have been available for trade or theft. I can't stand discovering anything anyone else on the planet has. It feels like a waste.

I have tried cashing early in the hopes of getting a desired tech but it never seems to work.

I have considered your point that tech rates increase no matter how you acquire a tech. But in the early game , the growth in tech cost is huge. I would much rather

a) research 3 or 4 techs over 20 years and THEN cash for a net of say 5-6 techs . . . THAN

b) cash immediately for 2 techs and then only be able to research 1-2 more i the next 20 years-- The difference in tech tate can be that much


But like anything , IT DEPENDS !! If I have a lousy lousy tech rate, I will cash . If there is a key key tech I want above all else, I will also cash.

generally though, I love that feeling of that AA being a potential tech-- Its a "tech" no one can steal yet and which doesn't figure in my tech cost

	25-06-2004 04:44									#18
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The biggest factor for me is that you only get one chance to get those important early SPs like WP and HGP - early techs can be easily traded for or probed, it'll likely be much harder to capture a SP

	25-06-2004 05:02									#19
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I don’t know how much most of you have played blind or semi-blind research, but I can assure you that you are desperate for any advance, and keeping an unused AA in your pocket to save the tech needed for your next advance is not on your mind. If you are the Gaians with the best research rate on Chiron and you STILL don’t have EE by 2220 I’d bet those artifacts will be linked so fast it would make your head spin.

Or, if you are racing to get Planetary Networks and have been foiled the last few time, and you see Lal has been building VW for the last 20 years, you will happily link you AA for the chance of getting PN.

Likewise, without crawlers you will resort to all sorts of creative ways to boost your construction of vital Projects. For instance, I’ve built probes or even scouts, moved them to a target base, re-homed, then disbanded in a desperate attempt to get minerals and reduce the rush rate (I lose half by disbanding, but rushing with energy costs 4x; you do the math). In this instance I am thrilled to cash an AA for a Project (saving me 200 energy for rushing). Disbanding units is not very efficient, but it beats the heck out of losing a vital Project to the AI or another player in PBEM.

This is what I like about blind and semi-blind research. Yes, it is frustrating, but it makes you work harder. And you appreciate what you’ve got instead of pining away that IA is four turns away: for all you know it is 40 turns away!!

Hydro

	25-06-2004 05:59									#20
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On average, how many AAs to you tend to recieve, on your own, from Unity Pods? Standard map, let's say...

	25-06-2004 09:00									#21
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I've gone numerous games where I haven't found any AA's. Then there are a few where I find 5+ (one game as Deidre on a huge 70% water map I found over 20 AA's with my IOD&worm scouting parties. Just scout the seas until you find an island, disembark your mind worm, and pick up any supply pods.)

	25-06-2004 09:14									#22
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I sometimes get AAs.
In singleplayer I tend to get more worms than AAs, which makes it a bit tricky to send ol' greenscout off to pick up pods.

	25-06-2004 12:25									#23
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quote: Originally posted by Hydro I don’t know how much most of you have played blind or semi-blind research, but I can assure you that you are desperate for any advance, and keeping an unused AA in your pocket to save the tech needed for your next advance is not on your mind. If you are the Gaians with the best research rate on Chiron and you STILL don’t have EE by 2220 I’d bet those artifacts will be linked so fast it would make your head spin. Or, if you are racing to get Planetary Networks and have been foiled the last few time, and you see Lal has been building VW for the last 20 years, you will happily link you AA for the chance of getting PN. Likewise, without crawlers you will resort to all sorts of creative ways to boost your construction of vital Projects. For instance, I’ve built probes or even scouts, moved them to a target base, re-homed, then disbanded in a desperate attempt to get minerals and reduce the rush rate (I lose half by disbanding, but rushing with energy costs 4x; you do the math). In this instance I am thrilled to cash an AA for a Project (saving me 200 energy for rushing). Disbanding units is not very efficient, but it beats the heck out of losing a vital Project to the AI or another player in PBEM. This is what I like about blind and semi-blind research. Yes, it is frustrating, but it makes you work harder. And you appreciate what you’ve got instead of pining away that IA is four turns away: for all you know it is 40 turns away!! Hydro

Why do you re-home the sacrificial units?

	25-06-2004 16:29									#24
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It's my newb response - I don't know where the minerals go if I disband a unit at a base other than its home.

	25-06-2004 18:42									#25
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Sik - you re-home the unit so when you scrap it the minerals go to the target base. Otherwise I'm pretty sure (but not 100% sure) the minerals are lost if the scrapped unit is not at its home base (anyone experiment with this? I’ll have to check). This is inefficient but only feasibly way of transferring mineral resources before you have supply crawlers. Scrapping nets you half the minerals of construction, so you do pay a penalty. My favorite sacrificial units are probes since they don’t take support, are useful for defensive and some offensive purposes, and have a move of two (unless they are cheap-o move 1 defensive probes).

The benefits of re-homing and scrapping are:

* You can do this for ANY unit or improvement, even one that has already been prototyped and is not a Project.
* It can be easily used with rushing. For instance, you could scrap an old scout (adding 5 minerals of its 10 construction cost to the base’s unit/improvement) to get the minerals over the magic 10, and then rush for much less cost. This eliminates the need to over-rush the previous item (with carryover to the next item), which is very energy expensive
* It is useful if you are unit-heavy and energy-limited. Rushing is great if you have lodes of cash, but if you are can’t use FM (Gaians), are pre-FM, can't reasonably run FM (Hive), or it isn't convenient to do so (drone control or war footing issues) then this can be used to good effect.
* If someone is snooping on you can surprise them by getting critical unit or improvement/Project done before they would otherwise suspect (eg - it is another in a bag of tricks to be used judiciously)

For those that B-line via directed research to IA this tactic is probably not of much use since you get crawlers early (as folks have posted, many go for AI before all else save CE). For those using Blind or Semi-Blind research this can be critical.

	25-06-2004 20:08									#26
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I usually get 2-3 AAs in a game. I seem to get slightly more from sea tiles than land tiles but thats just a feeling.

I had one game ( a PBEM) where I found that the 2 factions allied against me, had 11. I had tech parity ubtil they cashed . . . I was suddenly 11 techs in arrears and capitulated soon after.

	25-06-2004 20:31									#27
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Hydro

I have played double-blind and my opinion holds. I just tend to get a LOT more active with my explorers and probes as soon as I can.

I just know that at times when I have experimented with cashing the AAs I have seen huge changes in research times. I might be researching at a tech per 8 turns and a discovery makes it 10-12 turns. Cash 3 AAs and its a discovery in 25 turns or heck 30 turns or even more.

I don't have a hard and fast rule but my if research rate is decent I will protect that. But I will cash for tech

1. if my research rate is crap anyway. Anything 20+ years
2. possibly if there are key techs I am missing I might take the chance. I probably won't do this if my research rate is good
3. If I am stuck on a small landmass and can't get ecology or flex-- then I will cash to try to get off the durn island

I will not cash an AA for tech anytime I am within 3-4 years of my next discovery. Against the AI I find I even have the luxury of timing my trades and thefts until just after a discovery.

By mid-game, tech rate is not as big a concern as a couple of additional techs don't make that big a difference in the rate of discoveries.

Last edited by Flubber on 25-06-2004 at 20:42

	25-06-2004 20:45									#28
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Flubber - I've really noticed a change in tech rate when tech trading or cashing AAs to nodes until after the next tech advance. As you say, I frequently avoid trading or cashing until after a soon-to-come research tech advance. I'll pay closer attention in my next SP game. I've got a few things to check now: where scrapped mins go; when bumps in tech time occur when tech trading or AA linking.

You are very right about being forced to be more aggressive with terraforming and exploration when doing blind and semi-directed research. For me this is the spice of the game anyway, so I don't mind at all.

	25-06-2004 23:49									#29
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quote: Originally posted by Hydro when bumps in tech time occur when tech trading or AA linking.

I know this one. After you have RESEARCHED YOUR FIRST TECH, increases in research cost are only reflected when you START your next tech AFTER A RESEARCH DISCOVERY. So

1. If you acquire techs before your first discovery, the cost of that first discovery will rise dramatically.
2. Post first discovery-- acquiring even ten techs will NOT change the cost of the tech you are currently researching.
3. It will change the cost of the the nwxt tech you START researching. I make this distinction because if you are researching a tech and acquire that tech by other means, you get a cost free switch. The added cost is reflected in the cost when you next begin research.


I became VERY aware of the tech cost issue when playing 2x3 games. To have 3 factions with similar tech rates have proposed research times that vary from 3 to 40 years is quite enlightening .

	25-06-2004 23:59									#30
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Flubber - that is exactly my understanding. It's nice to have it confirmed.