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Theseus
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The warmonger formerly known as rpodos. Gathering Storm! Apolyton Spirit!!
Apr 2002
time: 00:36
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Welcome aboard Petrus! I pretty much agree with you... but as pointed out, this is a community that self-selects for smarts, micromanagement, fanatacistic devotion, and among other things that has resulted in SirPleb, who seems pretty darn qualified, offering to do the ongoing patchwork for basically free, and numberous others (e.g., player1 re Armies) figuring out what is exactly going on. A resource set and offer that I don't think most software development companies get very often. So, yeah, I'm a fanboy in a big way, but I still shake my head at some of Firaxis' decisions.
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Petrus2
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Thanks, Theseus.
I understand the statements about little fixes on the bugs, or taking the work of someone who is willing to provide it for free and sending that out as a fix. However, if you think about it, it isn't really that simple.
If a company, ANY company, is going to release code, you know darn well they have a lot of testing to do. They will need to QA the fixes themself, as well as ensure no malicious code is included. Did the "fix" cause any new problems? QA has to check that. So while it sounds easy, it would chew up company resources. And no matter how upset people may be at the latest release, if another release was sent out with new problems, would that make any one happy?! Think of it as Risk Management, from a corporate point of view.
Are there ways around it? Sure, though none perfect.
-They could release the code for anyone to mess with, but that isn't likely until the product is pretty much done as a commercial product (this isn't Unreal, et al). Patches posted in that case wouldn't be "Firaxis", so they'd bear no obligation from problems.
-They could transfer some resources to fixing the problem themselves, but with Pirates and the embryonic Civ 4, I suspect they are fully occupied.
-They could QA the "free" fix, but still, they are probably plenty busy.
Now people are probably thinking I'm an appologist for them, but that's not the case. I'd LOVE to see the 3rd option above, and it probably is the most reasonable. By the same token, it would be a mistake to assume that "a patch is easy, just put up the code provided".
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Sir Ralph
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Long live teh Schwampel!
Dec 2001
time: 06:36
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I don't shake my head about Firaxis' decisions. They are all logical from the capitalist point of view. Plain and simple, how much copies of Civ3 did they sell? Without looking it up, I dare to say a few millions for sure. How many of these copies went to us hardcore fans? 5000? Or 10000? Whatever it is, it is less than 1%. Face it, hardcore fans. You mean nothing, and your opinion can be safely ignored. It is much work to satisfy your high expectations, and it is so cheap to get new customers of the kind "ah thanks Mum, a cool new game, keeps me busy for the next week or two". This is the kind of customers companies like Atari and Firaxis appreciate. As sad as it sounds, but they can easily afford to lose their entire fanbase. As Civ4 comes out, new fans will emerge. The supply of dumb, grey sheep, who buy their games, is endless. And this, fellow fanboys, is as sure as the "amen" in the church.
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vondrack
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Praha, Czech Republic
Jan 2002
time: 06:36
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Well, I do not think I agree completely about "they can easily afford to lose their entire fanbase"... theoretically, they can. But then, the Civ merchandise would become just regular stuff like every other. It would lose that "family silver" status of a well-recognized brand which attracts a great deal of attention just by publishing a new version. Since the new, sheepish buyers do not usually recognize the brand - that's, after all, why they'd buy a sequel to a crappy title...
Also, the hardcore fans are a great asset when it comes to "word of mouth" advertising and - when it comes to support (imagine there would be no Apo or CFC... would newbies ask their questions on www.firaxis.com ?)
My impression is that because of the code legacy going back to Civ1, Firaxis has pretty much given up fixing the unfixable (you fix one bug and introduce a new one or two, because of the poorly written code underneath) and focus on creating a totally new Civ engine they will actually be able to fix efficiently as bugs get reported by the hardcore fanbase.
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Antrine
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Yes, but a few things just can't be that way, like the loading protocol used to load units into armies. Find four or five 'easy fixes' whatever they might be, do it, sing praises of wonderfulness and save some face here and there; at least for sake of SALES of any new products that happen to have 'their brand name' on them.
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Sir Ralph
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Long live teh Schwampel!
Dec 2001
time: 06:36
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Yes, yes, the fairy tale of "multiplier" and "word of mouth propaganda". I must have heard it before.  And I find it really amusing, that so many people buy the "sorry customers, we're not able to deliver a quality product, but you should really, really, really, really, really buy the next sequel. It's written by the same people, but it will be a real pleasure" story. If my car dealer said such a thing, would you believe that I buy the next model of this brand?
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Petrus2
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Actually, Sir Ralph, companies do listen to the rabid fans. Input from those sources has been incorporated in games for years now. Face it, most players never give feedback to the companies, so it ends up being the hardcore that get the input.
Having said that, it isn't practical for a company to let the tail wag the dog. By that I mean those 5000 hardcore players can't drive decisions on a 1 million seller game. Can they influence? SURE! Dominate the decisions? Not likely.
This isn't just in computer games or general computer programs, either. It is across pretty much all products. A company is in business for profit, and they must serve their core audience first. The hardcore help that core audience by providing excellent feedback and proposing improvements, but even that can only go so far.
Theseus makes a good point in how relationships between computer game devs and the community are changing. I think FPS/RTS games are ahead of the turn-based strategy companies on that. I point back to my earlier post where I mentioned that Firaxis COULD release the code, thus removing the burden of QA'ing mods, or that they could QA a "fan produced patch".
In summary, if anyone wants to have an impact with a company, intelligent, polite, concise emails/posts are what get results. Remember, somewhere a PERSON has to read the comments as a starting point, and that person probably wants to do a good job and produce a quality product, just like all of us do at our regular jobs.
And for any product, remember the 3 main gaming magazines (in the US at least) and their reviews...excellent sites like this...and other sources of reliable reviews, before you spend those dollars! There are currently only two companies I'm willing to buy a product from without reviews, and in spite of any issues with C3C, Firaxis is one of them (Pop Top is the other).
Ok, I'll stop preachifying now 
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Sir Ralph
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Long live teh Schwampel!
Dec 2001
time: 06:36
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quote:
Originally posted by Petrus2
Actually, Sir Ralph, companies do listen to the rabid fans. Input from those sources has been incorporated in games for years now. Face it, most players never give feedback to the companies, so it ends up being the hardcore that get the input.
Having said that, it isn't practical for a company to let the tail wag the dog. By that I mean those 5000 hardcore players can't drive decisions on a 1 million seller game. Can they influence? SURE! Dominate the decisions? Not likely.
This isn't just in computer games or general computer programs, either. It is across pretty much all products. A company is in business for profit, and they must serve their core audience first. The hardcore help that core audience by providing excellent feedback and proposing improvements, but even that can only go so far. |
This translates to "The hardcore players are convenient and gratis beta testers for the core audience and have absolutely no right to desire a quality product". Sorry, but I disagree. I am not interested in extra features. All I want is, that the game works as described.
quote:
Theseus makes a good point in how relationships between computer game devs and the community are changing. I think FPS/RTS games are ahead of the turn-based strategy companies on that. I point back to my earlier post where I mentioned that Firaxis COULD release the code, thus removing the burden of QA'ing mods, or that they could QA a "fan produced patch".
In summary, if anyone wants to have an impact with a company, intelligent, polite, concise emails/posts are what get results. Remember, somewhere a PERSON has to read the comments as a starting point, and that person probably wants to do a good job and produce a quality product, just like all of us do at our regular jobs. |
Yes, of course. But are they aware, that some of us aren't spoiled kids, but also hard working people, who want to provide their scarce spare time with a working and enjoyable game?
quote:
And for any product, remember the 3 main gaming magazines (in the US at least) and their reviews...excellent sites like this...and other sources of reliable reviews, before you spend those dollars! |
Sorry, but I don't give a damn about these gaming magazines. They gave a 9 out of 10 for unpatched plain Civ3, enough said.  They have zero competence.
quote:
There are currently only two companies I'm willing to buy a product from without reviews, and in spite of any issues with C3C, Firaxis is one of them (Pop Top is the other).
Ok, I'll stop preachifying now |
If you're content with what you got, more power to you. For me, Firaxis meanwhile stands for "Wait, look for reviews of really reliable fans (not gaming magazines, who cheer up everything), and buy when it hits the $5 shelf at the earliest.
And for your records, I have been a staunch Civ3 supporter since it came out. I remained loyal through plain Civ3, which was a buggy mess when it came out and developed into a decent game finally patched. I did my very best to help, too. I stayed loyal, when the MP part of PtW didn't work as desired. Maybe because I prefer PBEM over online MP, which worked halfway. I always was a constructive and polite fanboy, through two long years.
I bought the game and the two XPs the very day they came out, for the full price, which was pretty high compared to other, more complicated games. I bought all of them even twice, for me and my son. Be honest, who of you bought an extra copy for a family member? I did. I showed the game to my friends and colleagues. Some of them (not the FPS crowd, obviously) bought the game too.
I was not even upset, when Conquests came out buggy. Be patient, I said to me, they will fix it. They fixed all so far. But I was wrong. They left me out in the cold. And this is, what I will never forgive them.
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DrSpike
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Enthusiastic member of Apolyton
Sep 2001
time: 05:36
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Amen. 
I'm not settler bashing but you really have to been here from the start to really understand our positions (maybe, you were, I can't say for sure.  )
We tested this game, and it took the best part of a year to finish. Then PTW was one of the worst XPs in history, since MP, it's main component, was broken beyond belief on release, and took a while to fix. Then Conquests and the whole gpt and FP shenanigans. I actually appauded (and still applaud) the openness about the beta patching, but in the end it also showed how bad things really were organisation wise. The people posting here had no clue about the FP model in their own game (I know it's tricky to the uninitiated but come on, if you are posting here on Firaxis' behalf then at least spend 30 mins getting the basics) and posted incorrect and contradictory statements. They also had 3 attempts at fixing it in the beta patches before it worked as advertised, and if it wasn't for dedicated fans like Alexman maybe they never would have.
What's more, some of the AI tweaks accumulated over 2 years are gone, perhaps never to be replaced. Too much of the game does not function properly, and will perhaps never be fixed.
You can try and be reasonable all you want, but there comes a time when you have to stop defending and say, look, this just isn't good enough.
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Petrus2
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I don't disagree, NYE. The question then, at the company level, is What does the mass customer think? (sadly, since most never "speak", they have probably abrogated their opportunity to have an impact).
If the general customer is quiet, then the "hardcore" tend to have more of an impact, although this is not always for the best! (I can point to a few laws from Congress that are the result of vocal minority interest groups!!!). I'm not sure off the top of my head when Pirates is due out, but I think it is fall/winter. So I would assume Firaxis is FULLY employed grinding on that, and not likely the people are doing just 8 hours days either. This may not cheer some people up, but realistically if C3C is going to be patched, it probably won't be until after Pirates ships and the first patch for that hits the streets.
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21-07-2004 00:25
now. It is time for a 'wrap up' 
I'll live with what I got 
here in this game, yet set my eager eyes elsewhere 
!!
...and then improved... 
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