02-07-2004 21:02									#511
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If Bush had made a speech to announce the attack in front of the children, Moore's movie would have had interviews with kids in that class who were terrified because mommy or daddy was flying on business that day.

	02-07-2004 21:03									#512
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quote: And yes 7 minutes is a HUGE deal. Every second is precious.

Sometimes there is just no getting through to some people. I'll let you live in your fantasy world.

	02-07-2004 21:04									#513
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quote: Originally posted by Verto What could he have done, Kid, with those 7 minutes? Well, far less than seven actually. He would have had to go to his motorcade, to some location he could work from - the White House, Air Force One, etc. This would have taken time, during which he would be struggling with the Secret Service whose job it is to keep him safe. Let's not pretend Bush could have strode out of that classroom and been on the phones in 30 seconds, singlehandedly saving the day.

The point is that America was without leadership for seven minutes in a time of great crisis.

	02-07-2004 21:05									#514
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Die, thread!

	02-07-2004 21:05									#515
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious Gather information, and make an informed decison, and go out and provide some leadership.

Nobody (except for the terrorists) knew what was going on in those seven minutes. How is Bush asking people "Hey, what's going on?" supposed to help the situation any?

And what do you mean, "go out and provide some leadership"? It's not as though the New York police and fire departments were twiddling their thumbs, waiting for a call from the President...

	02-07-2004 21:06									#516
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Anyway. I can testify that watching Bush sit there while we were under attack was great propaganda. Great material for a great piece of propaganda.

Bush looks real bad.

	02-07-2004 21:13									#517
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quote: Originally posted by GePap Given I agree with the general notion the 7 minutes are not an issue: this is another strawman like Imrans: what could hae have done? Made angry calls tryng to get people to shape up perhaps? Lets not make things up either. This was an extraordinary shock for everyone. Why expect anyone to be jumping up and down. Anyone realize just how little time 7 minutes actually is in all but the most extreme situations (and let me add, Bush was at the time NOT in one of those most extreme situations)

OK, what have you done with the real GePap, this is way too reasonable!

Are you sure about the timing of the first plane before he started reading? I hadnt heard that before.

Another point that hasnt been brought up yet is the embarrassing fact that the President did not have good communications to the White House and Pentagon from Florida. Although the last couple of days of the 9/11 commission did not include any 'bigshots' they were very informative as to what happened on those days. It also came out that communications were extremely poor from AF1 and that was a source of a lot of confusion.

	02-07-2004 21:20									#518
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Kid, I think this 7 minutes thing you got going here is a big strawman.

	02-07-2004 21:25									#519
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious The point is that America was without leadership for seven minutes in a time of great crisis.

	02-07-2004 21:33									#520
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When Sava and Mr Fun think you are nuts for critisizing Bush on something, just quit, will you?

There are many other things to critisize Bush on. This isn't even close to being one of them.

	02-07-2004 21:37									#521
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui When Sava and Mr Fun think you are nuts for critisizing Bush on something, just quit, will you? There are many other things to critisize Bush on. This isn't even close to being one of them.

right on...

	02-07-2004 21:37									#522
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quote: Originally posted by Sava Kid, I think this 7 minutes thing you got going here is a big strawman.

Hmmmm...


I'm not trying to make a strawman.

It goes to Bush's character. My perception is that Bush was afraid to find out what was going on, and that he wanted others to make the decisions. That would save his political ass, and that's all he really cared about. I don't even think he was afraid of what the terrorists would do if he sat there in hiding.

	02-07-2004 21:40									#523
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quote: It goes to Bush's character. My perception is that Bush was afraid to find out what was going on, and that he wanted others to make the decisions. That would save his political ass, and that's all he really cared about. I don't even think he was afraid of what the terrorists would do if he sat there in hiding.

I agree it goes to his character. But even I am giving Bush the benefit of the doubt on this one. And lets be honest. What could Bush have done differently in those 7 minutes that would have made a hell of beans difference that day?

	02-07-2004 21:46									#524
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quote: Originally posted by Sava I agree it goes to his character. But even I am giving Bush the benefit of the doubt on this one. And lets be honest. What could Bush have done differently in those 7 minutes that would have made a hell of beans difference that day?

ARGH!

It doesn't matter what he could have done. You guys are the one with the strayman. It only matters that he didn't find out what he could have done. That goes to his character.

	02-07-2004 21:49									#525
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Spence: yes, Bush was told that a plane had hit the WTC and decided to go ahead with the event- i doubt anyone in his group either knew the scale of what had just happened or believed it must be terrorism.

The 7 minute bit comes after the second plane hit and it sort of became clear we were not talking accident.

	02-07-2004 21:51									#526
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Let me repeat the message Bush recieved again.

"Mr. President, America is under attack!"

	02-07-2004 21:52									#527
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious ARGH! It doesn't matter what he could have done. You guys are the one with the strayman. It only matters that he didn't find out what he could have done. That goes to his character.

And what at least I am saying is that not knowing what to do after being told "hey, guys just crasehd airliners against the WTC" is not surprising, nor do I think it is reasonable to fault anyone from being shocked or disoriented by it.

Besides, there is more than enough relevant stuff to question Bush's judgement and character.

	02-07-2004 21:53									#528
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poor Kidicious . . . . .

	02-07-2004 21:55									#529
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I would've preferred that Shrub have himself briefed on what exactly was going on, and what his options were in the event of a couple planes crashing into the WTC. Maybe he couldn't have done anything, but it was his responsibility to ask the relevant questions. In retrospect it didn't much matter, but it could have.

	02-07-2004 21:56									#530
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious Let me repeat the message Bush recieved again. "Mr. President, America is under attack!"

Yeah, knowing that his life was probably in immediate danger at that moment, Bush should have just blundered around in order to put himself in greater danger ("Sorry kids, gotta go... ummm... somewhere less safe than here"), rather than waiting for the secret service to give him the OK.

	02-07-2004 21:57									#531
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In 7 minutes they could have saved 200 lives at the Pentagon.

	02-07-2004 21:57									#532
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quote: Originally posted by GePap Besides, there is more than enough relevant stuff to question Bush's judgement and character.

I agree, but this seems to be hot right now.

	02-07-2004 21:59									#533
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quote: Besides, there is more than enough relevant stuff to question Bush's judgement and character.

Yep, and this type of focus is DANGEROUS, because when you focus on the little things like this that most people don't care about, the BIG things get brushed aside and hidden in the dark. People will say what's the big deal on this and totally ignore the BIG stuff. I've seen it happen so many times in elections in the past.

	02-07-2004 22:05									#534
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara In 7 minutes they could have saved 200 lives at the Pentagon.

That would have taken more than just Bush doing things differently. Plus, judging from what I've seen about the air-traffic controllers and fighter jet positions, I don't think they could have stopped that plane in 7 minutes.

	02-07-2004 22:05									#535
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quote: Originally posted by Verto What could he have done, Kid, with those 7 minutes? Well, far less than seven actually. He would have had to go to his motorcade, to some location he could work from - the White House, Air Force One, etc. This would have taken time, during which he would be struggling with the Secret Service whose job it is to keep him safe.

Or he could of, you know, asked his people what the hell was going on and try to figure out what was happening and what his response should be?


But instead, he sat there and read a child's book while his people no doubt scrambled to get that motorcade and airforce one ready for him, so that he could disapear for hours without anyone knowing where he was and without giving any sort of statement as to what was going on.

But atleast he avoided causing panic amongst the second graders.

	02-07-2004 22:22									#536
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I wonder how anyone defending Bush would feel if they called up about an emergency and the person they spoke to on the phone told them the people they needed would only start responding once they've finished a photo-op in about 10 minutes.

	02-07-2004 23:04									#537
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The analogy doesn't fit. The people you needed were already dealing with the problem as best as they could. Firefighters, policemen, the military - all were responding. Let's not act as if Bush has direct control over them.

	02-07-2004 23:08									#538
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Where in the hell are the mods?

	02-07-2004 23:08									#539
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc Where in the hell are the mods?

I dunno, but we should strive for 600!

	02-07-2004 23:09									#540
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Hey, its the friday before July 4th.