02-07-2004 18:14									#481
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My predictions:

1. You will hear stories trumpeting this charitable giveaway all of this weekend, going into next week. Page A-1 stuff, mind you.

2. In about 12-24 months, you'll spy a report that said charities were "disappointed" at the amounts they received, especially in comparison to how much the movie grossed. These articles you'll find in page D-32, sandwiched between tire ads.

You can take it to the bank.

	02-07-2004 19:08									#482
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: Two words would of sufficed, before geting up and findind out what was going on: "excuse me". Uh huh... and then the kids would wonder why Bush was gone and didn't come back.

Well, it'd be better than them (and everyone else) wondering why he was reading a children's book as his country "came under attack" after the fact, wouldn't it?

quote: He decided not to panic the kids.

Yeah, you know how kids panic when someone important has to excuse themselves from something.

I'm sure he would of managed to excuse himself in a way that caused every 2nd grader to **** his pants, but really, a simple "excuse me" would do.

quote: Good for him! Secondly the Secret Service wouldn't have let him leave anyway. They were securing the area because he would have to leave early.

So he can work from his ranch and on the golf courses, but not at a school with his entourage of staff present?

	02-07-2004 19:13									#483
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You are really dense aren't you? What kind of 'work' would he have done at that exact time? Changed into his Superman suit and flown to Pennsylvania to save that last plane? The Secret Service was trying to get him out of way, into a bunker, somewhere safe. Trying not to put the President in danger. They were the ones running his schedule at the point they thought it was terrorism.

Yeah, like he could say a simple 'excuse me' as he's reading a children's book. And then the goat went... oh excuse me. Bye, bye kids! You don't think the kids would be all curious about where he was going and kind of scared that he just took off like that?

Furthermore, like JohnT says, when the first plane hit, people didn't think it was a terrorist attack.

I can't believe how utterly silly people are to say Bush was evil for not leaving a classroom full of kids immediately when he heard the first plane had crashed. Oh no! He stayed another seven minutes until the event was over. Big ****ing deal!

	02-07-2004 19:24									#484
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui You are really dense aren't you? What kind of 'work' would he have done at that exact time?

Get caught up with the situation and figure out what was going on, at the very least.

But I supose you're right, that's a bit beyond bush - he has people to do that for him. Really, there's nothing he can do except read children's books, I suppose.

quote: Yeah, like he could say a simple 'excuse me' as he's reading a children's book. And then the goat went... oh excuse me.

After his aide stepped in and whispered in his ear that his country was under attack would be a good opening.

quote: You don't think the kids would be all curious about where he was going and kind of scared that he just took off like that?

Curious deffinately. Scared? probably not. But so what if they are?

Like I said before, it's better for them to be momentarily curious or nervous about him geting up from his PR session, than for them - and everyone else - to be curious and scared at why he didn't.

	02-07-2004 19:31									#485
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Why? Is a panic (remember the room was full of reporters) better than Bush just waiting? After all, even after the reading was over, the Secret Service kept him at the school for half an hour until they could verify it was secure to get him somewhere else.

	02-07-2004 19:33									#486
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whoah! this thread is almost full. I should answer the thread question, since I haven't yet.

No I have not seen the movie. Should I? Is it that good?

	02-07-2004 19:39									#487
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui Why? Is a panic (remember the room was full of reporters)

Oh, yes. Because, you know, as planes are flying into the world trade centers the media and ensuing panic would actually be revolving around the president excusing himself from a PR session to deal with it.

quote: After all, even after the reading was over, the Secret Service kept him at the school for half an hour until they could verify it was secure to get him somewhere else.

Try reading?

Too bad there wasn't a golf course nearby that they could put him to work on.

	02-07-2004 19:47									#488
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While I agree that the fact Bush did not immidately fly off and respond after the second plane hit (remember, the first plane hit before he started readng and he decided to go forward with the event) is not much to hold against him, and is used by Moore simply as a cinematic exercise to set up the part about Bush and the Saudis, I do find Imrans reasoning silly. No, the kids would not have been panicked, unless of course the president ran screaming - "we are under attack and we are all going to DIE!". If he just said "excuse me" and gone of to the side, the kids would have been curios but otherwise nothing would have happened. I also think it highly unlikely that tryng to avoid a panic by the kids ever entered his mind. I think much more likely he was simply stunned and did not know what to do.

And you know what, in that situation, that is utterly OK. You guys try to think of what to do in such a situation. Stalin was useless for several days after Hitler invaded.

I don't hold it against Bush that he did not know what to do at that time. But lets not make up crap like "he did not want to panic the kids!" to try to make it seem like he was anything more than Human. There were plenty of people on that day who did not know what to do.

	02-07-2004 19:49									#489
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: Two words would of sufficed, before geting up and findind out what was going on: "excuse me". Uh huh... and then the kids would wonder why Bush was gone and didn't come back.

Yeah that's important. Don't worry that the nation is under attack. Just don't worry the children in the room.

	02-07-2004 19:52									#490
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quote: Originally posted by GePap I think much more likely he was simply stunned and did not know what to do. And you know what, in that situation, that is utterly OK. You guys try to think of what to do in such a situation. Stalin was useless for several days after Hitler invaded.

Ah come on. All I'm saying is that it is very strang that he didn't even get up to go to a place where he could monitor the situation better. At least he could have freed himself up.

	02-07-2004 20:10									#491
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I'm curious to find out what you think he might have done considering the ****-ups at the FAA and NORAD that day.

	02-07-2004 20:17									#492
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious Ah come on. All I'm saying is that it is very strang that he didn't even get up to go to a place where he could monitor the situation better. At least he could have freed himself up.

Maybe- but then, maybe he was complelty caught for a loop and had no idea what he should do. And you know what? as I said above, that is utterly human. I don;t see how that can be held against him. Now, if an hour afterward he was still wallowing uselessly, then perhaps you can start. But 7 minutes? Come on.

	02-07-2004 20:22									#493
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc I'm curious to find out what you think he might have done considering the ****-ups at the FAA and NORAD that day.

What he might of done shouldn't be a concern. The concern is that he knew the nation was under attack and he then proceeded to read to second graders.

	02-07-2004 20:24									#494
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quote: Originally posted by GePap Maybe- but then, maybe he was complelty caught for a loop and had no idea what he should do. And you know what? as I said above, that is utterly human. I don;t see how that can be held against him. Now, if an hour afterward he was still wallowing uselessly, then perhaps you can start. But 7 minutes? Come on.

7 minutes is a big deal. It's just not the sort of person that you want to be in that position. You want a person with some leadership qualities, that can act in a crisis.

	02-07-2004 20:31									#495
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I agree with GePap. A person that jumped immediately to action would be one that I would suggest is either too rash (a common complaint against Bush) or would suggest the person was not surprised and had foreknowledge of the impending attack. (another common complaint against Bush)

Interstingly enough the fact that he shows pause shows better IMO than an immediate knee jerk reaction.

	02-07-2004 20:31									#496
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious What he might of done shouldn't be a concern. The concern is that he knew the nation was under attack and he then proceeded to read to second graders.

I get it now. Instead of being where he was and impotent to deal with the situation, you'd simply prefer he'd have been somewhere else and be impotent to deal with the situation.

	02-07-2004 20:45									#497
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quote: Originally posted by Ogie Oglethorpe I agree with GePap. A person that jumped immediately to action would be one that I would suggest is either too rash (a common complaint against Bush) or would suggest the person was not surprised and had foreknowledge of the impending attack. (another common complaint against Bush) Interstingly enough the fact that he shows pause shows better IMO than an immediate knee jerk reaction.

How can you sit there and make a decision without getting the information? All he knew was that we were under attack.

Really.... This is getting amusing.

	02-07-2004 20:46									#498
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc I get it now. Instead of being where he was and impotent to deal with the situation, you'd simply prefer he'd have been somewhere else and be impotent to deal with the situation.

I prefer a leader that can act in a crisis.

	02-07-2004 20:47									#499
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What information do I need? You described it well enough. A 7 minute pause where he looked like a deer in the head lights. BFD.

Had you said a 7 day or 7 hour pause where he was incapacitated by inaction that might be different.

Were there any pending decisions that required action on his part during those 7 minutes?

	02-07-2004 20:52									#500
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quote: Originally posted by Ogie Oglethorpe What information do I need? You described it well enough. A 7 minute pause where he looked like a deer in the head lights. BFD. Had you said a 7 day or 7 hour pause where he was incapacitated by inaction that might be different. Were there any pending decisions that required action on his part during those 7 minutes?

IMHO, that aspect of the movie was more Moore's interpretation than anything else. Also, I don't think you guys should be worrying about Bush's reaction. That's one of the most insignificant parts of the movie. I'm more upset/worried about the Bush families connections to the Saudi's and bin Laden family than what happened during 7 minutes on 9-11.

	02-07-2004 20:53									#501
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious I prefer a leader that can act in a crisis.

We're back to the question of what exactly you think he should have done in light of the ****-ups at the FAA & NORAD.

	02-07-2004 20:53									#502
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quote: Originally posted by Ogie Oglethorpe What information do I need?

I was refering to Bush, not you.

quote: Originally posted by Ogie Oglethorpe You described it well enough. A 7 minute pause where he looked like a deer in the head lights. BFD.

If he were one of the people in danger or reacting to the scene he wouldn't have 7 minutes. If he were on the battlefield and he froze for 7 minutes, he (or at least his troops) would be destroyed.

And we can't even really say that there were no consequences for his failure to function in a crisis. A better crisis manager could have made a difference.

	02-07-2004 20:55									#503
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc We're back to the question of what exactly you think he should have done in light of the ****-ups at the FAA & NORAD.

Find out about it.

	02-07-2004 20:56									#504
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious A better crisis manager could have made a difference.

Like what? Shoot down the other airplane with jets that weren't in position to do anything and that, legally, couldn't shoot down the other airplane?

Focusing on this "seven minutes of inaction" is incredibly inane.

	02-07-2004 20:58									#505
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What could he have done, Kid, with those 7 minutes? Well, far less than seven actually. He would have had to go to his motorcade, to some location he could work from - the White House, Air Force One, etc. This would have taken time, during which he would be struggling with the Secret Service whose job it is to keep him safe. Let's not pretend Bush could have strode out of that classroom and been on the phones in 30 seconds, singlehandedly saving the day.

	02-07-2004 20:58									#506
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I reiterate, unless he failed to make decisions that folk were asking of him during those 7 minutes, waiting/pausing sorting things out was appropriate.

As far as I know emergency response and military were not asking for any actionable permissions in that time period.

	02-07-2004 21:00									#507
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc We're back to the question of what exactly you think he should have done in light of the ****-ups at the FAA & NORAD.

Given I agree with the general notion the 7 minutes are not an issue: this is another strawman like Imrans:

what could hae have done? Made angry calls tryng to get people to shape up perhaps?

Lets not make things up either. This was an extraordinary shock for everyone. Why expect anyone to be jumping up and down. Anyone realize just how little time 7 minutes actually is in all but the most extreme situations (and let me add, Bush was at the time NOT in one of those most extreme situations)

	02-07-2004 21:00									#508
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quote: Let's not pretend Bush could have strode out of that classroom and been on the phones in 30 seconds, singlehandedly saving the day.

perhaps you should tell the Bush campaign people that.

	02-07-2004 21:00									#509
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btw gg thread over 500!

	02-07-2004 21:01									#510
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This is what he should have done, and what every good crisis manager should do in such a situation - Gather information, and make an informed decison, and go out and provide some leadership.

And yes 7 minutes is a HUGE deal. Every second is precious.