01-07-2004 16:02									#61
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quote: Originally posted by CyberShy it should be completely random

Random would be good if they where using a province system, but I don't think they are.

	01-07-2004 16:04									#62
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quote: Originally posted by General Ludd Yeah, whatever. For starters, how about explaining why a spherical 3D map would require anything more than a flat 3D map?

Easy. In order for something to appear flat on a spherical world, the sphere would have to be huge.

	01-07-2004 16:05									#63
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quote: Originally posted by Sn00py Easy. In order for something to appear flat on a spherical world, the sphere would have to be huge.

I adressed that further down in the post you quoted.

	01-07-2004 17:46									#64
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If anyone is interested, below is an example of what sort of world shape you end up if you go down the football route - lots of hexagons and 12 pentagons. This was generated with a simple terrain generating algorithm, so it isn't too hot, but is probably the simplest way of getting a 'spherical' world.

Attachment: world_small.jpg
This has been downloaded 123 time(s).

	01-07-2004 20:31									#65
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As if Firaxis will bother with a World map anyway.

	02-07-2004 01:52									#66
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quote: Originally posted by General Ludd There's no point in going 3D unless it provides a spherical map.

Two words: continuous zoom.

	02-07-2004 02:07									#67
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Hmm...how about a Fuller projection for the world map? On the globe, that is.

	02-07-2004 02:59									#68
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vulture:
interesting shot! they all look like hexagons except the corner pieces. and that's where the problem would lie: no matter how big it is, as soon as you put in pentagons in, the angle changes by a certain amount. a football (soccer for north americans ) gives a nearly round shape because there's only 1 "layer" of hexes between each pentagon... in your screenshot you can see how cornered a big world would get. in fact... it looks like an icosahedron to me (20 triangles).

so, distortion would be needed anyway...

	02-07-2004 04:28									#69
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So why a spherical map anyway? Do you want to zoom out to space and see the earth from afar? Is that how you want to move around the world?

If that's what you want, then the release date can be 2006 December.

	02-07-2004 04:54									#70
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quote: Originally posted by General Ludd Yeah, whatever. For starters, how about explaining why a spherical 3D map would require anything more than a flat 3D map?

It has to be big enough so that the curvature is not blatantly apparent.

EDIT: already mentioned

	02-07-2004 05:11									#71
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quote: Originally posted by Sn00py So why a spherical map anyway?

1. Playing on a globe is preferable to playing on a cylinder.


2. It's the only practical application of 3D graphics in such a game.

	02-07-2004 05:42									#72
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Why did you mention cylinder?


Why is it the only practical application of 3D graphics in such a game?

	02-07-2004 06:05									#73
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quote: Originally posted by Sn00py Why did you mention cylinder?

Because that's what a flat map represents.


And don't you even suggest a doughnut shape.

quote: Why is it the only practical application of 3D graphics in such a game?

Making a two dimensional map with 3d graphics is pointless, and I'm willing to bet will end up looking pretty bad, especially when compaired to it's 2D counter parts.

3D for the sake of 3D is bad. It has to add somethign to the game, and in this case I think a spherical map is the only thing that it can add.

	02-07-2004 10:51									#74
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I think it'll be a mix of 3D and 2D.
For an overview-game like civ it makes no sence to go 3D all the way. 3D only works if you want to zoom in on a small part of your kingdom.

Not if you want to see a big overview.

	02-07-2004 10:53									#75
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quote: Originally posted by General Ludd Because that's what a flat map represents. And don't you even suggest a doughnut shape.

What about a doughnut shape?

	02-07-2004 13:46									#76
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quote: Originally posted by Sn00py So why a spherical map anyway? Do you want to zoom out to space and see the earth from afar? Is that how you want to move around the world?

The latter. It's about movement more than anything else.

quote: Originally posted by Sn00py If that's what you want, then the release date can be 2006 December.

Why? It's not that tough to add.

	02-07-2004 17:02									#77
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Actually, a 2006 release date would be pretty good... unless you want another rushed hack job that requires two expansion packs just to get to a level of mediocracy.


The game's only been recently announced, and a year and a half to two year production time is not unreasonable at all.

	02-07-2004 19:36									#78
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@vulture: OK, it's not a sphere, but it doesn't look too bad... would be very hard to program, of course.

@Nuclear Master: CTP had the option to play on a donut-shaped world. Never tried it.

	02-07-2004 22:09									#79
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A spherical map is just the way to go. Continuous zoom is nice, but doesn't justify 3D all by itself. They could just add more zoom levels if that's all the more that they wanted to add.

A 3D map that is a perfect sphere is now out of the question since they have unfortunatly (in my point of view) decided to go with tiles, but that doesn't mean that a distorted sphere is ruled out. I don't care if my globe bulges at the equator anyway (as someone said it would by 3 degrees with an all Hex globe)... Earth does, so why not?

Being able to sail or fly over the poles, and having distances be realistic at different lattitudes would be a huge improvement.

The days of the tiny cylindrical map should be over with. The cylinder is a hanger-on from low power PC days... please Firaxis, let it die.

	02-07-2004 22:32									#80
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flat maps DO often make sence, but mainly when playing scenarios and local maps (like map of 1 continent and smaller). so don't let it die completely

	02-07-2004 23:31									#81
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quote: Originally posted by Fosse A spherical map is just the way to go. Continuous zoom is nice, but doesn't justify 3D all by itself. They could just add more zoom levels if that's all the more that they wanted to add.

3D allows the zooming to be much more clear and concise. If you look at Civ 3's zoom then you'll see the problem - the map scrolls slowly there's only a couple levels and it doesn't look at that nice. Doing the map in 3D allows many more zoom levels to be implimented rather easily, and they'll all look just as good as any other, just bigger or smaller.

And that's not all 3D does - it makes it easier on the developers, because instead of creating objects in 3D and rendering them back to 2D (like they did for Civ 3), they can keep them in their native format, which look better and are also more flexible to use in game (rotating, zooming again, etc.).

	02-07-2004 23:32									#82
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I think everyone should be considering how a map of diamonds could be implimented into a spherical map (if at all), because I really see there being no way that Civ 4 will change from diamonds to hexes or anything else.

That being said, the only way to have such a design would be to have distorted diamonds that aren't the same shape (some of them very highly distorted near the poles). Because of that, I don't see spherical maps being very likely.

	03-07-2004 00:11									#83
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Well, one way to deal with distortion is to hide it. You keepthe distortion at the edges or opposite side of the sphere as much as possible, and whenever you move your perspective, it doesn't rotate the sphere as much as it overlays the area you move to on the good part.

-Drachasor

	03-07-2004 00:42									#84
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Hmm. How about a map view looking down on the North Pole from above, with both X and Y wrapping? Pretty effective simulation of a spherical world.

	03-07-2004 00:54									#85
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quote: Originally posted by PresidentMarcos Hmm. How about a map view looking down on the North Pole from above, with both X and Y wrapping? Pretty effective simulation of a spherical world.

Kind of hard to have a north pole when there isn't a south pole.


With both X and Y wrapping, it would represent a doughnut shaped world.

	03-07-2004 02:26									#86
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No, no. Have you ever seen those maps of the Earth looking down at the North Pole? The idea is to use the same view. X and Y wrapping would represent the fact that if you went down south far enough, you would go around the south pole and come out on the other side. Just as soon as I figure out how to post pics...

	03-07-2004 04:16									#87
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quote: Originally posted by PresidentMarcos No, no. Have you ever seen those maps of the Earth looking down at the North Pole? The idea is to use the same view. X and Y wrapping would represent the fact that if you went down south far enough, you would go around the south pole and come out on the other side. Just as soon as I figure out how to post pics...

It doesn't matter where you focus the map, if you take a flat map and wrap both sides together you get a doughnut, no matter what.



If you focus it on the north pole, the "north pole" simply becomes a patch of ice in the doughtnut some where.

To represent travel across the poles you have to connect the sides of the cylinder together rather then the ends, which can only be done by capping off the cylinder with a dome, basically resulting in a sphere.




This can be represented on a 2D plane, but not in such a way that it would be practical as a game board.

	03-07-2004 04:22									#88
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Good job with the pics General Ludd

	03-07-2004 07:05									#89
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general ludd: nice pics ... matlab?

X and Y world wrapping would be torus (or doughnut) shaped, but here it's again a gameplay issue. being stuck on the north/south tip of a continent sucks because you've got worse corruption centering and further scouting. i'm ignoring the tundra-lands which usually comes with it. with Y wrapping, everyone has the same maximal distance to the furthest point: half the map.

but of course, logic wouldn't allow Y axis wrapping (except if you exit the top square on the left side of the map and reappear from the top again, just on the opposite side )

	03-07-2004 07:33									#90
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So my questions are..

1. Do you want to rotate around like you can in Black and White?

2. Do you want to zoom out so that you can see the entire sphere?