26-06-2004 06:43									#1
	Civ IV will have a 3D map! A discussion of possibilities Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

OK, it has been confirmed - Civ IV will have 3D graphics. We have been arguing over this for years, but that is what forums are for.

Here is what I think.

1. Tiles stay. This is not a maybe, this is a certainty.

2. Civ IV 3D map will be, and should be, designed in such a way that it allows for smooth playing without the need to rotate the camera. I argue that if camera has to be rotated, meaning some object on the map can cover other objects - the view is too zoomed in. The consequence of this assumption is that units will likely always be as tall as the tallest terrain feature and player will have a locked, sharp angle of view (Though not 90 degrees like in Civ 1 ).

3. SMAC engine does not allow for realistic presentation of earth geography. Note that I didn't say it's bad per se, but unsuited for earth geography. I think it is unlikely that it will be used for Civ IV.

4. Civ 1 graphics rule


Here is a graphic explanation of the above:




Below are some reasons why I think what I think. I've used earth geographic features for examples.

Last edited by VetLegion on 26-06-2004 at 16:19

	26-06-2004 06:52									#2
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First, lets go back to the roots. This is how Civ 1 map of Asia looked like:



Nice, eh?

And here is South America. I'll use that for cross game comparison.



Here are the same features in SMAC. Asia:



Just for good measure, Europe:



And USA:



And for comparison, two screens of South America, from different maps. First:



Second:



Now comes Civ II. Very ugly, no? Functional, yes:



And to compare:




That was the retrospective! I hope you enjoyed it

Now to the future.

Last edited by VetLegion on 26-06-2004 at 15:09

	26-06-2004 06:55									#3
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Here I show a relatively realistic 3D engine, well suited for modeling earth geography. Do you recognize where it is from?

I have drawn tiles by hand on the images. As I said, tiles stay, so let's see if we can make them work with such an engine. I also pasted some units to put things in perspective.

First, you have to agree this South America is prettier than all of those above (except Civ1):



The black squares represent two possible sizes for tiles, in this and other images. I don't think anything smaller than the smaller square is feasible because of rotation.

Here is Italy and Alps. Both sizes are cool:



Here is another. Note, both are too small!:



Here is another wannabe Moses. Definitely too small:



Here is the mesh for perspective:

Last edited by VetLegion on 26-06-2004 at 07:27

	26-06-2004 07:08									#4
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We move to the new world.

This guy can pass I think:



How about these? I think both can:



Here, the big guy is too big, but the smaller two could work. I think:



These guys are too small. If they were behind that mountain you couldn't see them:



Now a big pic with a mesh. The priest is to small. The big square shows approximately the right tile size:



Another, more zoomed out view of the same area with proposed tile size:

Last edited by VetLegion on 26-06-2004 at 15:00

	26-06-2004 07:13									#5
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Jesus, it's easier to split atom than to link to upload images
But I've mastered it

Last edited by VetLegion on 26-06-2004 at 07:23

	26-06-2004 14:59									#6
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The last picture:

Do you propose that we use the black squares as tiles in the game?

	26-06-2004 15:19									#7
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I think that if that mountain is od the size given in the picture (and all I wrote in the first post is true) it requires tiles of about the size I've drawn them.

Goes for most of the other pictures too. But these are just hand drawn estimates, I'm not too confident of them.

Does any picture/tile combo reflect your opinion on how Civ IV terrain should be? Post your own if you can draw. I dare you

	27-06-2004 00:11									#8
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Wow, these graphics looked really great... it would be cool if this is what we'll get. How big are the tiles supposed to be (in km / miles)?

(The 60° limit for heights is a good idea. So we have both - impressing heights and visible units.)

	27-06-2004 05:18									#9
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remember that civ is turn based and that you don't need to do things on the fly

If I were Firaxis I would be looking at their new pirates II engine, enhance it and tweak it for better TBS Civ style gameplay.

	27-06-2004 07:32									#10
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quote: Now comes Civ II. Very ugly, no? Functional, yes:

It's only ugly because you have the grids turned on.

Civ II graphics were by far the best.

civ I was pretty dull.

But I'll admit, Civ I beat SMAC by yards

The units on the Railroad Tycoon II map just didn't look realistic- nor do I think they could be made to look realistic- when I think of 3D maps, I think of Call To Power and call to power was a bit absurd in how it portrayed their units on the world.

Landscapes and mountains and vistas are just too large and people are just too small for the proportions to work out correctly. It's always going to look a bit strange. That's why 2D squares/units are the best (even if they won't sell in today's marketplace)

The best way that civ could do their map-squares (if they HAVE to go 3d) is in a semi-3D Age of Empires sort of way... I think that would look reasonably good... maybe...

Personally, I think that the 3D that requires rotation would make for the best visible-units (as in looking good), but would make it very hard to play the game.

However, another suggestion is to use an isometeric perspective of the world, sort of warping everything- then you could use the full 3D where things are more proportional, and could see things- sort of like Populous 3D or Black and White (and a little like Empire Earth)

What do you think about that?

	27-06-2004 07:45									#11
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Civ I reminds me of Mario

	27-06-2004 12:12									#12
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I really don't see anything being implimented that requires rotation.

As MP will be built in to Civ 4 from the get-go, having to rotate in mid-turn or mid-battle (RTS-esque) would be a bug if I've ever heard of one. And I doubt I'm the only one who has thought of this issue.

	27-06-2004 17:37									#13
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quote: Originally posted by Sn00py remember that civ is turn based and that you don't need to do things on the fly

I'd agree with Trip. Think of multiplayer. Thankfully this game will have multiplayer from the begining and contrary to popular belief, Civ does get hectic in multiplayer.

quote: If I were Firaxis I would be looking at their new pirates II engine, enhance it and tweak it for better TBS Civ style gameplay.

Could very well be. Why should a company develop two 3D engines? It makes sense to use the one from Pirates.

	27-06-2004 17:49									#14
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quote: Originally posted by DarkCloud It's only ugly because you have the grids turned on. Civ II graphics were by far the best. civ I was pretty dull. But I'll admit, Civ I beat SMAC by yards

Civ 1 had vawes man, VAWES!!
Case closed.

quote: Landscapes and mountains and vistas are just too large and people are just too small for the proportions to work out correctly. It's always going to look a bit strange. That's why 2D squares/units are the best (even if they won't sell in today's marketplace)

I agree. No realism in depicting units, and even little realism in depicting cities. It was always so in the genre and I think it will remain so in 3D.

But terrain itself could for the first time become more realistic. 3D will allow for more variation and I think it is reasonable to expect realistic proportions between land features themselves. Himalayas being twice as high as the Alps and such, instead of both being represented by generic "Mountain" tile drawing.

quote: Personally, I think that the 3D that requires rotation would make for the best visible-units (as in looking good), but would make it very hard to play the game.

Exactly.

quote: However, another suggestion is to use an isometeric perspective of the world, sort of warping everything- then you could use the full 3D where things are more proportional, and could see things- sort of like Populous 3D or Black and White (and a little like Empire Earth) What do you think about that?

I haven't played any of those so I can't picture it. Picture of how it would look?

	27-06-2004 21:43									#15
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here's one populous link:

http://images.google.com/imgres?img.../> 26ie%3DUTF-8

(you might want to cut and past it into your addressbar instead of typing it out )

Here's another:
http://edomekuvat.soneraplaza.fi/ko...ti/populous.jpg

this is an old populous image from 1992, but it is one example of how semi 3-d might work for Civ IV.

Here's another Pop-shot: http://www.alacn.hpg.ig.com.br/landscape.jpg

Here's 2 for black and white:

http://www.game-revolution.com/prev...and_white4b.jpg

http://www.game-revolution.com/prev...and_white6b.jpg
--

Personally, I still prefer 2D, but if they have to go 3D, I think vistas like these would work best- isometeric as opposed to Railroad Tycoon II's topdown, because if it was top-down then the units would be squashed too much

	28-06-2004 04:05									#16
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Well after reading the power point file lastnight, it seems confirmed that yes cIV will be 3D. But it also appears to be going 3D along the lines of Age of Mythology and Warcraft III.


I actually sense that this is the way CivIII was going to be when the Big Huge Games king (whats his name?) was on CivIII production. I reckon he didn't like the fact that CivIII wasn't going down the same road as Rise of Nations sort of has now and that's why he left.

It's surprising to note that this power point never refers to Rise of Nations, which would be the most obvious game to try and relate cIV to if one were to find pro's and con's about games using 3D models. But it hasn't, and that just makes me believe that this ppt file is merely a way to ease CivIII into cIV with no relation to RON. Which is fine of course, but also feels a bit 'sneaky'.

Oh well, all is good on the Firaxis front now then. cIV will be 3D, what sort of 3D we don't know; looks like religion and civics will be in, that will also be interesting to see.

	28-06-2004 04:19									#17
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There goes Civ IV

	28-06-2004 05:10									#18
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imho, they already spent too much money on artists in civ3.
i have most animations turned off anyway, only battles not... not because they're pretty, but because i need to know the outcome when it's not my turn

simon says: stick to gameplay issues and scrap too much fancy stuff

	28-06-2004 05:41									#19
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What I'd love to see is Civ1 graphics in Civ4. Seriously. Functional, still good looking, easy to understand. Extremely low computer requirements. Implement all the new gameplay concepts, etc., but Civ1 graphics.

	28-06-2004 09:36									#20
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It'd probably sell like Civ 1 too... sell like it was released today, not a dozen years ago.

	28-06-2004 20:26									#21
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quote: Originally posted by Solver What I'd love to see is Civ1 graphics in Civ4. Seriously. Functional, still good looking, easy to understand. Extremely low computer requirements. Implement all the new gameplay concepts, etc., but Civ1 graphics.

Nah. Civ III graphics are fine, actually, I would rather have any Civ graphics as long as Civ IV did not have any WarCrap graphics

	28-06-2004 23:55									#22
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quote: Originally posted by DarkCloud Civ II graphics were by far the best.

No, C3 graphics give a much nice atmosphere.

	29-06-2004 02:38									#23
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quote: Originally posted by Solver What I'd love to see is Civ1 graphics in Civ4. Seriously. Functional, still good looking, easy to understand. Extremely low computer requirements. Implement all the new gameplay concepts, etc., but Civ1 graphics.

	29-06-2004 03:36									#24
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out of all those i prefer civ1 but the railroad tycoon gfx setup is pretty good too. 3d can be good if done right. also no rotation is good(see warcraft3) and doesn't bring much to the table.

	29-06-2004 04:43									#25
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Wait, vetlegion, why did you not show a Civ III picture?

	29-06-2004 04:51									#26
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I guess he assumed that everyone already knew what Civ 3 looked like.

	29-06-2004 05:20									#27
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I thought most of the people who bought Civ III, had Civ II?

	29-06-2004 05:55									#28
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I've always wanted Civ4 to have a hex-based map and if it were 3d, it should be like a giant soccer ball world (a true spherical world).

Please firaxis, make it HEX BASED

	29-06-2004 06:39									#29
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Hex based would mean you'd need about 6 (I think) pentagons, which throws things out of wack.

	29-06-2004 06:44									#30
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quote: Originally posted by Apocalypse Hex based would mean you'd need about 6 (I think) pentagons, which throws things out of wack.

you do realize that practically every wargame is hex-based and represent distance far better than isometric grids?

btw, I am totally against 3d maps like the ones posted at the top of this thread. I really don't see the benefits of that other than the "ooh, Civ is now a 3-d game because 3-d is cool these days" excuse.