07-07-2004 19:50									#121
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So someone else reported it in their forum, I take it?
No names needed.

	07-07-2004 20:00									#122
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Talking about their turn, they said about accidentally finding this base. I pointed out that the rule was in finding it, not in how they did it, but decided because they were not trying to, and because of the way they found it, that evening the playing field, as opposed to punishing them, was more in order. They admitted it and told me how it happened.

	07-07-2004 21:15									#123
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quote: Originally posted by Drogue If he's been cheating in the DG, yes.

Hasn't Kody proven that already?

quote: If suspected, but not strongly enough to warrent complete expulsion, I will ask that he not play the turn, so as to limit anything he could do,

If he really wants to cheat, which definitely seems to be the case, he can do also without playing the turn, eg playing on parallel turns to learn things about other factions' position and actions, and then making 'innocent' suggestions to the turnplayer.

quote: while we decide if cheating in other PBEMs is enough reason to kick him out of all.

He has been warned repeatedly several times in the past, yet he has not changed his ways. So with all respect, but I consider it very naive to believe things would now suddenly change. Also note that he consistently refers to the ACDG as a normal PBEM, so he himself doesn't see any difference between PBEMs and the ACDG. In other words, if he sees any opportunity to cheat in this ACDG, he will always do so just like in his PBEMs.

	07-07-2004 21:37									#124
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A reply to HongHu's post, relevant to this issue:

quote: Originally posted by HongHu Kody believed that you should let the person know that his cheating is noticed, so even if he wins he'll know that it is meaningless. With time, he'll want to give up cheating because all he gets from it is meaningless wins.

I think this is true for most people, but not for Enigma_Nova. He'll consider a game a valid and meaningful victory even with cheating, which he doesn't see any problems with:

quote: Originally posted by Kody I had some private discussion with him [E_N] about the issue, we talked about cheating and morality. The conversation ended with Enigma saying my morality would mean I would always lose and the fact he was willing to do what was necessary to win would mean he would always come out on top.

quote: However now that he knows that cheating would not be tolerated

He knows that longer than today...

quote: Enigma PMed me back with very positive attitude. He said that if going clean means that he would lose 10% chance of winning a game, but would give him 400% chance that others will play games with him, he'd go for it. He actually proposed to restart the game, even knowning that people has learnt a lot about this game (like the governor election, etc.). I believe him.

Don't you see he's just saying what he knows that you want to hear? I can't believe you're actually falling for such obvious tricks. He's just playing games with you, and I think the past has showed he has no intention to do what he promises you or anyone else.

quote: I have seen him change his style of posting. He used to be very aggressive and abusive, but he has learnt to become more civil.

Has he?

quote: I believe if he really tries he can change.

Problem is he doesn't really want to try or change.

quote: All he needs is someone to tell him, this is not the way to go. If you want to continue to play games with us, you need to go by the rule, and stop using those exploits.

That has been said more than once. However people keep starting up new PBEMs with him in it. Even now Googlie has suggested a new PBEM with him. What do you think the message of that is?

quote: I think it is unfair to say that Enigma used his last chance to talk to me. When you say you are giving people a chance, you need to actually see what they do. You have to let him actually play, and see if he actually have the will power to change and stay away from cheating.

He has been given many chances already. There is a time to say: "Now it's enough.", and act upon your words.

quote: I, for one, is willing to give him that chance. I'm willing to help him fight his old habit, and let him prove himself. With the help from all of us, he can win this fight.

Then I'd suggest you play a PBEM with him. But don't force everyone in this ACDG to continue playing with him. The risk is too high.

	07-07-2004 21:46									#125
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I somehow wish we had allowed him to join us. With Maniac as the principal turn player E_N would have never had access to the game.

I think the guy's what some call "an attention whore". He does all these things because he has no ability or desire to relate to the general rules of conduct of the community and only wants to see the repercussions, the reactions and the results of his actions. We should do our best to null any damage he might have done as early as possible before it can have a serious outcome on the game.

I would urge everyone to consider that if this person is a repeat offender of cheating in PBEMs, I hardly doubt there would be a massive uprising in protest should E_N be removed from the game by an "executive decision". It's not like there's a court he can appeal to, nor is there an established history on just what you need to throw someone out (at least in ACDGs).

A community should always hit hard on MP cheaters for they are a true problem. Popular FPS's like Counter-Strike have the luxury of programs to see if someone's cheating, but we don't have that. Our only option is ostracizing cheaters and not letting them play a single other game with us, PBEM or demogame.

I'm very impressed that the CMNs want to gather as much evidence as possible to ensure the "basic rights" of the players are upheld, but this is a subforum of an internet discussion forum, not a nation or a corporation or a school.

Edit: This is from someone who hasn't been involved with E_N before. I don't know of his other previous exploits, and the message in this post applies to everyone.

	07-07-2004 23:24									#126
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quote: Originally posted by Kassiopeia I somehow wish we had allowed him to join us. With Maniac as the principal turn player E_N would have never had access to the game.

No, then I would have left the Spartans.
I was happy the Gaians and Spartans refused Enigma_Nova, but of course the Angels had to be so stupid to accept him, with all this trouble as a consequence.

Btw, Enigma_Nova told somewhere in the Multiplaying forum that the Angels have an Ogre. Gee, what luck with pod popping!

	07-07-2004 23:37									#127
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quote: No, then I would have left the Spartans.

Ah. Fair enough.

IIRC the Angels asked Drogue to have a turn replayed because they had been phenomenally lucky to an unfair extent in pod poppings. Could this have been an attempt at damage control by the others in the Angels team?

	08-07-2004 00:22									#128
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Ok, let me try to tell you what I have been thinking.

For those who was in Hive forum the last game, you would remember how I fighted Enigma. He was really violent. I didn't think he would change at that time either. But he did change. Yes he is still annoying and arrogant a lot of times, believing he is above all and everything. But I can see that he is learning. There is no doubt that he lacks the social capability of interacting with other people. But he is learning, even very slowly. The most prominent change I see, if that he has started to be able to take in other's words, not going all violent against the slightest criticism. I know he is far from where people think one should be, but if you know his past, you'll know he has changed, and you'll believe that he can change for the better.

Ok now this is one issue, obviously lots of work is still needed in that area. And I cannot predict if he will come out to be the best person and not be thrown out one day because he abused somebody else. All I'm saying is that he is not as a hopeless case I once thought he was.

Now the cheating issue. Obvious he has cheated. But nobody had actually told him no, you can't cheat, you must take responsibility. When a child first take something from a store without paying, you need to tell him right there, no that is wrong, you have to send it back. You can't just pretend you haven't seen it and hope that he will learn not to do it later.

So I pushed Kody to come out with his cheating. However I want to see he is getting his fair chance. This is the first time he is accused of cheating, and the first time he can say he is sorry for his behavior and he wants to change.

And he said that he is sorry. And that he is willing to go clean.

I know if it is another person people might be more receptible. However since Enigma have been such an annoying person people are dying to get the chance to throw him out.

What I'm thinking, is that what would cost us to believe in his sincerety? If he says he will go clean but he didn't mean it, how long will his lie lasts? One turn? Two turns? If he does't cheat that means he has kept his words. If he does cheat then he will receive the punishment he deserves. What is so wrong with that?

Doesn't everybody deserve at least one chance? Remember this is the first time he is accused of cheating.

	08-07-2004 00:35									#129
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I understand that Enigma may have his own personal problems, but an undertaking like the democracy game which involves dozens of people and took weeks to get started in the first place is IMHO not the right place to solve them or try to make him better his ways.

It's not a matter of whether he deserves a chance, but whether it's proper to have that chance jeopardise things on a larger scale. I have nothing against E_N personally, the only beef I have is with cheating and my only concern the good of the game on a whole.

Also, even if he didn't cheat from now on (I'm for the moment assuming he has, with his track record), the stain will always be there. The Angels team can not play in peace, because someone will bring it up every single time the Angels are doing well, and they'll always remain under suspicion. It'll become a huge burden on them too. Of course, in that case it's really up to the Angels to decide what to do with him.

	08-07-2004 00:59									#130
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quote: Originally posted by Kassiopeia I understand that Enigma may have his own personal problems, but an undertaking like the democracy game which involves dozens of people and took weeks to get started in the first place is IMHO not the right place to solve them or try to make him better his ways.

I agree completely. I want to help him learn not to cheat, but I'm not going to wreck the DG for the 20 or so active players by letting him run riot.

	08-07-2004 01:06									#131
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quote: Originally posted by Maniac Btw, Enigma_Nova told somewhere in the Multiplaying forum that the Angels have an Ogre. Gee, what luck with pod popping!

That turn was replayed though. I think he realised it was obviously cheating, and so when we needed the morgan replay, he said he would accept new pops.

If he cheated, even in the old turn, that will be enough to expel him.

	08-07-2004 01:41									#132
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quote: Originally posted by Drogue I agree completely. I want to help him learn not to cheat, but I'm not going to wreck the DG for the 20 or so active players by letting him run riot.

I agree completely. If you read Kody's newspaper I'm actually the one that opposed to him being the Angels turn player. However at that time I do not have evidence that he is cheating so I believed it is the Angels decision whether they let him be the turn player.

I am arguing that he should be give a chance to prove himself in a pbem. But I support that he should not play Angels turn until he can prove himself.

	08-07-2004 10:36									#133
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quote: Originally posted by Maniac Even now Googlie has suggested a new PBEM with him. What do you think the message of that is?

I have?

I'm in You Think You Know Everything with him - and have said to Kody that I'd play on even knowing that E_N was cheating (just treat him as a super tweaked AI faction)

But that would require Chaunk's concurrence as well, which isn't forthcoming (in fact in his last turn E_N has prepped his faction to disband bases and gift others to the AI, effectively withdrawing next turn)

I have not suggested a new game, and wouldn't CMN one with E_N in it in any event

G.

	08-07-2004 10:45									#134
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quote: Originally posted by HongHu Now the cheating issue. Obvious he has cheated. But nobody had actually told him no, you can't cheat, you must take responsibility. Doesn't everybody deserve at least one chance? Remember this is the first time he is accused of cheating.

HH, I couldn't disagree more.

Four months ago E_N started a thread where he published his steps to remove the reload message from PBEMs (in the interests of "pushing the envelope of full disclosure"

The thread was up for about five hours or so, and every CMN was on to him like a ton of bricks to remove that information, which he refused to do

We told him then that it was a flagrant cheat, and that it would ruin PBEMs for everyone, but still he refused.

Finally, Darsnan and I PM'd Ming, Dan Q and MarkG and asked for the thread to be deleted. It was within minutes, and I think the damage was relatively sucessfully contained.

E_N is still smarting over that.

So to argue that "he didn't know it was cheating" is a bit ingenuous, to say the least

He knew

Googlie

	08-07-2004 10:48									#135
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So is that supposed to be how he's been doing all those reload cheats without being caught?

	08-07-2004 10:51									#136
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exactly

nary a bad podpop, nor a battle lost to mindworms.

G.

Last edited by Googlie on 08-07-2004 at 19:43

	08-07-2004 19:53									#137
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is the ogre think what all the cheating-fuzz is about?

	08-07-2004 21:37									#138
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No - the mods are pretty sure that he's clean in the ACDG (which is why I deleted my snide reference to the Angels popping an Ogre during E_N's playturn)

If you pop into the multiplay forum, there's evidence of habitual cheating by him, using a hack he developed that deletes the reload warning from saved turns. (He published that hack a few months ago and refused to delete his post, so some of us contacted the mods and got the thread deleted. It would have utterly destroyed trust in PBEMs everywhere.) He was in some six or seven PBEMs, and has admitted to using his cheat in every one. (I was in one with him, knew he was using his infamous reload cheat, but I was just shrugging it off and treating him as a "super AI")

He has expressed no remorse other than to say he was compelled to cheat to prove he could compete - and win - against the veteran players he was up against. He claims to be reformed and warrants a second chance, but opinion seems to be coalescing around a banning of some sort for a period of time, as a punishment for wasting so much time of so many.

This has led to the unfortunate self-removal of the misguided HongHu from the ACDG and the 'poly forums. Pity, but she staked so much on her advocation of E_N's cause that she prolly felt honour bound to withdraw herself when the community seemed bent on applying sanctions on E_N

I say "the misguided HongHu" because his response to the suggested banning is "So what, there are other forums to visit, and I can always reappear at 'Poly with a DL . And in any event, University starts in a short while so I won't be inconvenienced" (my paraphrasing)

That's what the fuss is about.

G.

	08-07-2004 22:23									#139
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not so smart of him but damn since when is everbody so serious around here?...(ok i never play pbem` because i actually suck in play competative SMAC or CIV...i usually build a strong faction and then cheat and try to use a smaller faction (first run by the AI) to still wipe them of the map)...but damn......to bad everybody is acting like dicks and politicians...we are losin some good and fun players/posters because of all the inflating of stuff

	09-07-2004 00:37									#140
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quote: Originally posted by Googlie No - the mods are pretty sure that he's clean in the ACDG (which is why I deleted my snide reference to the Angels popping an Ogre during E_N's playturn)

Actually, I'm at least 99% sure he did cheat in this, which is why I have taken the action I have. Looking at his uncanny ability to advise things in the right place, as well as his first pops, before the reload, being calculated at odds so short it makes it rather unbelieveable. Not just the Ogre, but all the pops he made that turn, everything getting into the fungus, and seeming to know where things were.

Without this, I would have had a big problem with my desire for due process, and the masses that want him out. With this, I have no problem asking him to leave the DG. He has cheated in the DG, has shown that he can and will do it often, and has stated that he will not stop. I don't have a problem playing personally with him, but I won't let him spoil the DG for everyone else. Enough people have quit over this that it may be untenable if he's left in anyway.

	09-07-2004 12:31									#141
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What is all this nonsense?

200,000 words on the subject really needed?

In any game or sport, especially one with a referree or GM, people who cheat get banned. It happens everyday, and the games and sports are better for it.

We don't need cheaters here.

Can we get back to SMAC now please?

-jam

	09-07-2004 12:51									#142
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Relax, it is over with.

So, who is mixing the drinks tonight?

	09-07-2004 12:53									#143
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I'm always mixing the drinks

	09-07-2004 13:04									#144
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Fair and good with a cocktail shaker.

	09-07-2004 14:11									#145
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quote: This has led to the unfortunate self-removal of the misguided HongHu from the ACDG and the 'poly forums. Pity, but she staked so much on her advocation of E_N's cause that she prolly felt honour bound to withdraw herself when the community seemed bent on applying sanctions on E_N

I think I was part of the reason Honghu ended up defending Enigma so fiercely. I was blaming her for getting Enigma kicked, because I was suffering guilt and recrimination about my part in this whole sordid mess.

	09-07-2004 19:58									#146
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quote: So, who is mixing the drinks tonight?

i will in my stomach mixing a lot of different drinks

but for now SERGANT BARTENDER GIVE ME A SPARTAN SPINE REMOVER SHOT!

	10-07-2004 07:01									#147
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Question : Why am I still awake?

-Jam

	11-07-2004 03:21									#148
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Because you want to help bring Honghu back with your mindless yet funny banter?

	11-07-2004 03:43									#149
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Because you have adopted a superior sleep rhythm like me and sleep the days, not the nights?

	11-07-2004 07:00									#150
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Now might be a good time to mention that our dear HongHu has left the private forums. She has no access to them anymore.