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Kody
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If life's standing still and your soul's confused
Jun 2003
time: 14:36
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*sigh* Okay Honghu, I was making sure you understood all the consequences.
Enigma: You may not know this but I've been keeping count. This is your fourth and final chance.
If you don't know what needs to be done then, it's out of your hands.
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Kody
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If life's standing still and your soul's confused
Jun 2003
time: 14:36
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Forward the latest turn to me please too, or link it here.
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Enigma_Nova
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Kody: Where the hell do you get your numbers from?
No, I don't know what needs to be done.
What would you do in this situation?
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Kody
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If life's standing still and your soul's confused
Jun 2003
time: 14:36
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So far these are the actions I have taken to date.
* About a month ago I quietly commented to everyone that former reactivation was not allowed in the "Heart of Fire" and hinted that it was highly unusual for such pod pops to occur in the "You think you know everything" game.
The reason for that action was to give Enigma a small nudge hopefully towards not cheating. Nobody would have ever found out, and Enigma wouldn't even have to admit that he was cheating to me.
* Second warning was I started a rather long winded discussion about cheating in the Heart of Fire thread.
I didn't bring Enigma in at all, but the entire discussion was brought up simply for his benefit. I was hoping to show people's reaction and opinions towards cheating; however it backfired on me as people were fairly lenient in their judgement. I suspect that my actions made Enigma believe that cheat would simply get a slap on the wrist. I was hoping that Enigma would understand the logical reasons against cheating, but it was not the case.
I had some private discussion with him about the issue, we talked about cheating and morality. The conversation ended with Enigma saying my morality would mean I would always lose and the fact he was willing to do what was necessary to win would mean he would always come out on top.
* Third warning was when I started the Bear Baiting game, and directly confronted him with the issues of cheating.
I started bear baiting, because of Enigma. I tried to consider what the causes for cheating were and try and offset them. The two causes that I could figure out where that Enigma wanted to be in a position of power, and also that if he did fail to win he would want a good reason for it. I felt that by putting Enigma in a position of power in this PBEM and also giving him the excuse for failure (having 6 other players against him), he wouldn't have as much incentive to cheat. Furthermore, I was expecting him to cheat, but I hoped by confronting him with it and trying to dissuade him directly he might be able to break away.
The cheating occurred and I had a hard time trying to talk to him without being bogged down by him trying to defend himself. I lied to him saying I was only checking the bear baiting turn, because smacksim got attacked by mindworms. It was a half truth, as I was planning on checking the turn anyway. I managed to get him to promise not to do certain types of cheats. One of the cheats I accused him of that I thought he was using he wasn't actually using after I reviewed the save files.
At the time he claimed that he didn't know the terra-former reactivation was a bug. Although I already knew Jamski, Honghu and I had already stated it was a bug in the HoF at the start of the game and also during the second warning terra-former reactivation was one of the bugs that were discussed as a cheat.
When I asked him to stop reloading he said he couldn't promise that, instead I should give him time and I accepted that. At the time I promised that I wouldn't tell everyone that he was cheating and at that time I had every intention of keeping that promise. However, neither of us managed to keep our promises.
I promised that I wouldn't tell everyone because it would be forcing him to make the decision I wanted if I threatened him with it. He would need to make the decision himself without threats hanging over his head or it would be pointless.
* Final warning was the one posted in this thread
When I found out Enigma had broken the promises he made, I was upset, but I think somehow I believed he promised more than he actually had. Also
That when I noticed that he had cheated again reactivating terraformers. I decided to that it wasn't my duty to tell everyone what I had found out, as his level of cheating was so obvious to me I believed someone else would eventually bring him up on it. Telling myself that everyone knew I removed the html comment tags that were hiding my observations of his cheating in
Honghu quickly brought it up, actually much faster than I would have thought as the comments were in my older journal entries and I assumed it would be while before someone reread them if at all. We had a discussion about the issue on what were the consequences of telling everyone. I won't go into the details. She confronted me about it, but I didn't like the consequences.
So the final ultimatum was made in the Bear Baiting thread. I didn't specify what he had to do because he would get no redemption in other people's eyes if someone else led him to that decision. Also if I forced him to make that decision, it would be fairly meaningless. I hoped that he would come clean for real, this final chance wasn't so he could quietly change his ways. He had three previous chances to do that and it was too late for another go. This time I expected him to actually tell all of the truth and nothing, but the truth. Instead he spent his last chance talking to Honghu and convincing her that he could change and should be given another chance.
I also have compiled information on Enigma cheating in Heart of Fire, ACDGIII and Life is only a game (only up to 2108 for LIOAG, but gawd! it took me 1 hour just to track the series of unit creation pod pops for one of the turns).
When I finish LIOAG, I intend to go through Testalossa, which looking at the lastest save looks highly suspicious and I think I will find cheating in there too. I probably won't go Ytyke as I think it will come down to me showing the likelyhood of cheating through statistical analysis for that game.
So far Enigma's cheats that I have detected include, reloads lots of reloads, probe team retro-engineering, former reactivation.
Reload bug used to
* successfully move units without bouncing into fungus or due to being on partial moves.
* getting series of pod pops that are 1 in a billion.
* generating mindworms in fungus to kill them and get ECs.
* ensuring units don't take much damage when attacking mindworms.
The -50 ECs for the AI occurred in "You think you know everything", was probably a honest mistake.
Do people want to have to full turn by turn list of cheats I have detected or believe are likely?
I haven't completed it for LIOAG. I haven't started it for Testalossa and Ytyke. Completed for HoF, bearbaiting and ACDG.
Bear Baiting
* Turn 1,
starting money is 163 and he's completed a former in every city. Money per turn is 28.
From this we can deduce that.
163-28 = 135ECs left from last turn.
25ECs to rush each former in 9 cities = 225
Total money = 225+135 = 360
So he gained 350 ECs last turn.
He had 9 infantry, 4 rovers used up 2 moves each. 1 rover used up 1 move.
9+4*2+1 = 18 mindworms killed.
Another note that none of his units are at less than 20% damaged. Average damage is 10%.
Obviously looking closer at the turn it can be seen that he's rustled up one mindworm in fungus then rustled up an mindworm in adjacent fungus. Hence he alternated between killing each mindworm off one after another. So it was 17*20ECs +10ECs = 350ECs worth of mindworms.
Another thing to note is that a scout moved using 1/3 move which has a 33% chance (I'll also mention units that fail to move).
* Turn 2 of bear baiting.....
Of the 4 units of his move into fungus all of them succeed without mindworms or anything.
I made an scenerio, out of 10 scout units I'll write down how many manage to move into fungus.
(by the way I put high native life, so alot of worms)
1,2,1,0,3,2,3,1,4
1+2+1+0+3+2+3+1+4 = 20% chance to move into fungus without worms. (about 40% without worms)
Assume 40% chance for all four units moving into fungus successfully is .4^4=2.56%
So only a 2.56% chance of moving into fungus not including the possibility of worms. While there is a 0.16% chance that all units moved into the fungus without worms.
* Turn 3 of bear baiting no cheating detected.
Last edited by Kody on 07-07-2004 at 17:48
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Kody
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If life's standing still and your soul's confused
Jun 2003
time: 14:36
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Actually I don't really want to go through any more of Enigma's turns.
Testalossa and YTYKE are the only ones where I haven't specifically checked for cheating. I doubt I will be able to prove much in YTYKE, so that leaves Testalossa.
I looked at the last save of Testalossa and it looks wrong, especially since it looks like he got the weather paradigm before 2117.
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Snowflake
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falling, once again
Apr 2003
time: 23:36
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I had an argument with Kody about how cheating should be treated. Kody believed that you should let the person know that his cheating is noticed, so even if he wins he'll know that it is meaningless. With time, he'll want to give up cheating because all he gets from it is meaningless wins.
I believe that if cheating are found, it is the CMN's responsiblity to let everybody know. It is unfair for people who spend time to play honestly to be excluded from such important information and right to decide if they want to continue. It is also not healthy for the person who used the exploits, since if he knows that he can get by every game without being caught, he would not have any incentive to give up cheating.
In this game my post effectively forced Kody's hand, even if he is still hesitating about it.
After Kody came out and gave Enigma his last warning, I PMed Engima. I told him I understand to fight ones habit is very hard. And I understand that he is facing immense pressure in this game, since it is basically set up as all the others against him. So it is understandable that he has even less incentive to fight his habit. However now that he knows that cheating would not be tolerated, I expect him to change, for I know he loves this place, and I know he loves his game. I asked him if he will be brave enough to say that he will fight his old habit.
Enigma PMed me back with very positive attitude. He said that if going clean means that he would lose 10% chance of winning a game, but would give him 400% chance that others will play games with him, he'd go for it. He actually proposed to restart the game, even knowning that people has learnt a lot about this game (like the governor election, etc.).
I believe him. I have seen him change his style of posting. He used to be very aggressive and abusive, but he has learnt to become more civil. I believe if he really tries he can change. All he needs is someone to tell him, this is not the way to go. If you want to continue to play games with us, you need to go by the rule, and stop using those exploits.
I think it is unfair to say that Enigma used his last chance to talk to me. When you say you are giving people a chance, you need to actually see what they do. You have to let him actually play, and see if he actually have the will power to change and stay away from cheating.
I, for one, is willing to give him that chance. I'm willing to help him fight his old habit, and let him prove himself. With the help from all of us, he can win this fight.
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Enigma_Nova
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On further thought, screw it.
I'm withdrawing from my PBEMs.
So I've proved that I can get the lead with trainers.
In effect, I've proved nothing.
Let's see what happens when the chips are down, and every person is on equal footing aside from their wits and their factional advantages.
Now, scrap any PBEM in which a former was reactivated.
The past proves nothing, time to make a statement of the present.
Of course, the harder the challenge the better the game.
Maybe I should let all you guys cheat just to even the playing field a little.
Last edited by Enigma_Nova on 07-07-2004 at 22:36
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smacksim
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Deputy Chairman of the Council of Lords of Gaia
Feb 2004
time: 00:36
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Kody, that was quite a lot of effort on everyone's behalf. Thanks for your time. I did NOT suspect some of those motivations behind this game after having heard that E_N was possibly a cheater. Rather, I thought: 'Ah, here is a game where E_N gets to be the center of attention' and we get to act out our impulse to squish him.  . No, I had no idea that you might set this up as a mileu for exposing cheating. I feel a little used (blech). But clearly all of us like to ramble on, even when it might not be that important in the long term, and I'm no exception.
I've wasted a lot of breath on Enigma. I enjoy PBEMs, which is why I sign up for them. As a former middle-school teacher, I also enjoy nurturing youth. But you see, these are somewhat exclusive aims, as this case has demonstrated. I commend you for your patience, but now I think it's time to ban  Enigma from PBEMs despite his withdrawing above.
Even just in the text of this thread, just between he and I, I find reason not to play with him again. I asked him to fix the problem and he didn't. That's really it for me. But with the evidence you have brought forward, with talking with E_N myself in the chat room, etc.., it is all too clear that he has wasted many people's time and will continue to do so.
I agree with HongHu that Enigma has shown an ability to adapt, to behave, as it were. It's just too little too late, every damn time. This game was 'NO CHEATING'. That is utterly clear. Considering his exposure to this rule previously, he should be treated like an adult and banned. The fact that he 'came forward' with only half of his cheating, things that could be mistakes, compounds my sentiment. I believe Kody's stats about reloads. I do not believe Enigma, considering he's made no statement on the issue at all, but only sulked off.
No apology. No statement of denial or acceptance. No plan to fix the situation. Yes, here is someone unworthy of PBEMs. Grow up E_N, get a new nick and email, and come back to Apolyton then. You are fun to chat with, despite your spam posts everywhere. But no one is going to miss this behavior.
I'll wait a few days then lodge my formal complaint, unless E_N can demonstrate that Kody is wrong or that he has changed. Considering your 'Well I'll just withdraw everywhere' attitude, with no apology, I can see that you feel put-upon Enigma. If you have cheated, PWN up to it. If you havn't, defend yourself.
-Smack
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Chaunk
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CEO of Morgan Industries, ACDG3
Apr 2002
time: 05:36
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"**** happens, get over it" is not good enough enigma. You've picked up a reputation as someone who will cheat, and that reputation follows you.
At the moment, I concur thoughly with smacksim. You seem to not care about what you've done, about the time other people have wasted. You don't even seem to see us as worthy of an apology.
To me, you leaving your games without an apology or an admitance of anything, except to say "Sprung" or whatever, is like the nail in the coffin. I can easily see a way for you to regain trust, but for now, you've lost mine, and I imagine, other peoples too.
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Kody
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If life's standing still and your soul's confused
Jun 2003
time: 14:36
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quote:
No, I had no idea that you might set this up as a mileu for exposing cheating. Rather, I thought: 'Ah, here is a game where E_N gets to be the center of attention' and we get to act out our impulse to squish him. . No, I had no idea that you might set this up as a mileu for exposing cheating. I feel a little used (blech). |
I'm sorry Smacksim and the other players. It wasn't setup to expose Enigma's cheating. I had the idea that I would be able to force him to play the game without cheats if I caught him.
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Snowflake
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falling, once again
Apr 2003
time: 23:36
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People, you have to understand a person. When you have done something that you are not supposed to do, and you know that you'll be facing an angry mob, and you know that it is not anybody else's fault but your own, wouldn't you hesitate a little before you make up your mind to come forward?
I wish Enigma would allow me to post his PM to me before all these happened. But I guess he is too proud to let me do it now.
Yes we all have every right to bash Engima. Because he did what he shouldn't do. We have every right to refuse to let Engima participate in our pbems, because we don't trust him. But how many of us can swear that he/she hasn't used any of the exploits even once in his/her life? How many of us have reactivate formers, clicked in the dark, how many of us have reloaded in a SP game? Yes some says it's ok to do it in a SP game, but you can't do it in a MP game. That's right. We all learnt sooner or later what is the right behavior in a MP game. Enigma hasn't learnt it earlier, because too bad when he cheated the first time, nobody caught him, and later when somebody actually caught him, he was let go. Nobody told him that he cannot get by by cheating. Until now, when we accumulate all of his past offenses, and throw him away.
I'm not saying all he did is not wrong. No. They are wrong. And he deserves to be punished. But all I'm asking, is that he deserves one chance, to prove that he can fight his old habit. He said he is sorry for screwing up. He said he is willing to go clean. Why couldn't we give him that one chance that everybody deserves? What would cost us if we give him a chance to prove himself? Most of you are men. You understand what "male pride" is. What do you expect from Engima for you to believe that he is willing to go clean?
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smacksim
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Deputy Chairman of the Council of Lords of Gaia
Feb 2004
time: 00:36
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A very nice Sig Enigma. I'm impressed. To a certain extent, yes, you are at the mercy of your accusers or detractors. Do not let this stop you from making an apology in the actual thread, rather than in your changable sig.
PBEMs are based on trust. I hope you will forgive me for warning anyone who plays with you, if you are not banned. That is, until you take a new attitude with trust, and are explicit about it.
Kody, yes I see that Bear Baiting wasn't entirely about E_N's cheating. On the other hand, I think we can all see a reason now to make public our concerns about cheating, rather than 'see what happens' more than once. This could be abused though, by people being found guilty before being given a chance to explain themselves. I just want to make the point that if someone is very likely cheating, then they are ruining their current games (well, with the exception of Googlie's masochistic attitude above). I think we all owe it to the players to bring this up immediately and let them decide what to do. Most are savvy enough to realize that an accusation, or partial evidence, isn't guilt.
Do we even have a policy on this? Would be nice.
-Smack
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smacksim
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Deputy Chairman of the Council of Lords of Gaia
Feb 2004
time: 00:36
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HongHu, forgive my tirade here, considering you are leaving the forums apparently.
quote:
Originally posted by HongHu
People, you have to understand a person. When you have done something that you are not supposed to do, and you know that you'll be facing an angry mob, and you know that it is not anybody else's fault but your own, wouldn't you hesitate a little before you make up your mind to come forward? |
Definately hesitate. No use in real life getting squished - killed literally - by an angry mob, unless you wanna be a martyr for some cause.
However, this does nothing to surplant the total loss of honor and integrity by NOT coming forward, especially to a group as considerate and yes, caring, as those here at Apolyton. It takes the experience of having gone through this in life to lessen the hesitation, but most people, if they care about a community built on trust, will come forward if not coming forward is continually hurting others.
quote:
Originally posted by HongHu
{...} Nobody told him that he cannot get by by cheating. Until now, when we accumulate all of his past offenses, and throw him away. |
This is offset by the large scale of offenses, if we are to take Kody's word for it. Nobody should have to tell someone that they can not get by with cheating. This should be obvious to anyone with the smarts to be able to play Alpha Centauri. This is societal. This is basic human upbringing. Even those who cheat know that they are in the wrong. They should expect justice, as I think E_N has. Further, the simple act of playing a PBEM makes obvious the trusting nature of the game. Anyone who can't see that they are ruining a game for others and themselves by cheating is simply not mature enough for PBEMs. E_N has again, in his last post stated that he doesn't care much about trust. Whether or not that's true (I suspect it's not true), it is a statement that excludes him from any further PBEMs.
And yes, perhaps Kody or others should have come forward sooner, but this is a process question, and not relevant to what should be done with the accusation in my opinion.
quote:
Originally posted by HongHu
I'm not saying all he did is not wrong. No. They are wrong. And he deserves to be punished. But all I'm asking, is that he deserves one chance, to prove that he can fight his old habit. He said he is sorry for screwing up. He said he is willing to go clean. |
Where exactly? A signature is easily changed. I see no apology. The 'I will change' things are always implied, as if E_N is afraid to lose face by admitting wrong. Again, this demonstrates a level of maturity incompatible with PBEMs. You can not have it both ways. You must admit your mistakes fully. It's not the time to be cool, but to be honest.
I'd like to see Enigma make a post about fighting a habit like cheating. I'd like to see him post about realizing how much of other's time he's wasted, and what he hopes to do about it. That is the way to recover from a fall like this. Not through PMs or clever remarks. I wouldn't bet on EN making those public kinds of statements though, because they make a person look small. That's too bad. Here is a place where you can safely risk something like that E_N. Do it, if you even feel those things.
quote:
Originally posted by HongHu
Why couldn't we give him that one chance that everybody deserves? What would cost us if we give him a chance to prove himself? Most of you are men. You understand what "male pride" is. What do you expect from Engima for you to believe that he is willing to go clean? |
Now if he had said that, that would be one thing. But you are saying it. That is another. Personal responsibility is paramount. As is trust building.
-Smack
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06-07-2004 10:29
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