27-06-2004 17:40									#1
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The Research thread

We have already discussed a lot of this in the other forum. But we will need to recap and include it here for new players and as a easy reference for ourselves.

	27-06-2004 19:21									#2
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Again a JohnDMuller's post from our other forum.

Seems to summarize our thoughts at that time.

I would think that Doc:Flex would be an important tech for us for the obvious reasons. Interestingly, the Spartans could be convenient here as they start out with Doc:Mobility (and I would think that Flexibility would be high on their list too); whether as allies/tradiing-partners or as probe-techsteal victims they could help us get to the probefoils. The Spartans play pretty well with a little help in the Money and/or Tech departments, so we should watch out if Morgan and the Spartans get together.

The whole 'Resonance' path might be good for us too (if we were successful at getting our contacts and/or intel up and running, we could get some of the more mainstream stuff for without researching it ourselves; further, our relatively extensive contacts should give us trading access to the mainstream stuff also). The Res3 armor is pretty good stuff, and with a little luck, we might be able to beat Morgan to the PEG.

It would seem unlikely to me for us ro end up as allies with the Morganites, as we don't have a lot to offer them (In fact, they will have a lot to lose to us - their money and their techs), so unless we run into them first, I would imagine them to be somewhat inimical to us or at best wary.

While we do have a lot to offer the Spartans, and vice-versa, the afterglow of the previous ACDG PBEM could hinder mutual trust. If we were able to surmount that potential obstacle, the combination would be Morgan's worst nightmare, and Santi's hotshot troops would not have much trouble with the NL warriors of the Treehuggers.

One would think that the Gaians would be neutral to positive towards us (as our probe threat is less to them than to the others).............

	27-06-2004 19:25									#3
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This from ADamTGO20

Thoughts on beelines

I like the idea of going for Industrial Automation first, with a possible detour to Centuri Ecology. Reason: We need a strong infrastructure to create Secret Projects, and FM, as the Angels, is generally a plus. For the initial game, Planned might be a good idea -- the GROWTH and INDUSTRY will put us ahead of our competitors. Then switch to FM once we have a sizable population with Rec Commons in place.

Flameflash, you say you've used the Angels to good effect with Green. I suppose my playing them differs -- I've played them mostly as a Builder faction, and have generally gone FM for quicker research. But if that's your experience, I wouldn't mind beelining to Centauri Empathy, particularly since we get Secrets of the Human Brain on the way.

I'm not sure about going for Doctrine: Flexibility. We already can explore quickly with probe teams, so speeders are less useful for us. And unless we start on a small continent, Flexibility shouldn't really be necessary. I recommend focusing on one of the other beelines and getting these two techs from trading, our techshare ability, or liberation from foreign datalinks.

	27-06-2004 19:30									#4
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Again from AdamTGO20 a bit later.

Regardless of what specific order we are able to research these, is everyone now agreed that these are our priorities?

1st priority: Centauri Ecology
2nd priority: beeline to Doctrine: Flexibility
3rd priority: beeline to Centauri Empathy via SotHB

The first two seem to be decided upon... I'm not sure about the third, but it's the only option that's been discussed above other than Industrial Automation, which we decided to let the other factions research for us.

	27-06-2004 19:32									#5
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New remark: if the 4 teams are more or less evenly distributed around the Hive, chances are that we're on a big continent with the other players. In that case, Doc:Flex is not feasable for probing the other factions with probe foils, but can be usefull to found some bases on another continent in case some momentum team comes over.

I propose to let the third option hang for a while untill we have more info on our whereabouts respective to the other teams. After all, it takes already 3 techs (CentEco included) to go for Doc:Flex, so quite some years will have passed by then.

	27-06-2004 19:33									#6
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And this from Geomodder:

Centauri Empathy is usefull IMO for running green and being able to tinker with the econ/lab slider (in addition with EthCalc. off course).

Further I think that since Drogue/Buster indicate that all teams start in the neighbourhood of Yang, we can afford to leave AppPhys and NonlMath for what it is and proberape it from the Hive at a later date when the need arises.

	27-06-2004 19:35									#7
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Planning an escape route already?

	28-06-2004 08:24									#8
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The way it rolls:
I see IA as our main objective. We can probably research it before we meet anyone else with it.

If someone else has gone an obscure path, steal the tech from them and deny them IA. Anyone who neglects this vital tech will probably be punished - I know I wouldn't trade IA for 6-res weapons.

Crawlers are good, we should get them ASAP.
---

The problem is the mod lotto:
The techs are unavailable in the pattern 2-1-0-2-1-0...
The techs have the following mods:
CentEco - mod 0
IndEcon - mod 0
IndBase - mod 1
IndAuto - mod 1

The unavailable mod at the start will determine our path.

If Mod 0 is unavailable, Ecology can't be selected.
We go IB (can't select mod 0)
Then CE/IndEcon (csmod 2)
Then IndEcon/CE (csmod 1)
Then IndAuto (csmod 0)

If Mod 1 is unavailable, IB can't be selected.
go CentEco (csmod1)
then IB (csmod0)
then IndEcon (csmod2)
Then -junk teck- (probably biogenetics) (csmod1)
Then IA (csmod0)

If Mod 2 is unavailable, both IB and CentEco can be selected.
go IndBase (csmod2)
IndEcon (csmod1)
IA (csmod0)
CentEco (csmod2)

Mod 2 unavailable would be the best run at some other beeline - 3 techs without CE is a little much.
Set the starting tech to CE, our main beeline alternative:
CE (csmod2)
BioGen (csmod1), a mod 0 tech
SocPsy (csmod0), a mod 1 tech
SotHB (csmod2), a mod 0 tech
EthCalc (csmod1), a mod 2 tech
Genespl (csmod0), a mod 1 tech
EcoEng (csmod2), a mod 0 tech

And we hope that we've met somebody by then who can get us IndEcon. If not, we were better off researching it ourselves.

	29-06-2004 05:19									#9
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I hope JohnD will call in soon.

	29-06-2004 08:23									#10
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Enigma -- I was originally of your opinion -- that Industrial Automation was our best beeline. The consensus went the other way; however that could be revisited.

If everyone is unanimous on letting Centauri Ecology be our first tech, we should be fine for the first frew turns. But what if it isn't offered? We then have to choose between Industrial Base, Doctrine: Mobility, and possibly Social Psych (if we decided to go the Centauri Empathy route).

I agree, especially with Geomodder's recent insight on Doctrine: Flexibility, that Industrial Automation is likely the way to go. The tech boost from infiltrations with probe foils won't come soon enough to get us IndAuto and thus the Virtual World.

I guess it comes down to this. Do we want to be a dominant SP-building faction, or do we want to feed off the others like mosquitoes? Either is a viable path, but the dominance strategy would serve us better IMO.

	29-06-2004 10:23									#11
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You want something strong to trade.

Plus, if we're going the infiltrator route, all we need is one other team to try a strange beeline and there goes our IA leech.

FM is probably the way to go, so we'll want stuff like the HGP and the VW (and, I suppose, the PTS).

I see us as doing an FM/Dem/GA boom until we're blue in the faces. We do it better than Morgan, as the -1 Support means we have an extra former.

Which brings me to the WP, a useful project for everyone. I doubt we'll get it, but if we can, we'll be a potent force on the scene.
For our FM binging, the ME will rake in the cash from a SSC.
I'll bet we can out-tech Morgan if we get the ME.

	30-06-2004 06:08									#12
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Ok Kody says we get three techs given at the start. (Heaven knows what that will do to our tech costs). Doc Mob; Soc Psych, and Ind Base.

I tried it out in Smax tech forecaster and I got Cent Ecol offered with 6 other. Anyway it seemed a short 4 step path to Ind Auto and with Doc: Flex available at each stage.

One lesson in case we bump into Yang or someone else early is not to trade until we have discovered our own new tech, otherwise costs really shootup.

	30-06-2004 06:50									#13
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The starting tech options, sorry I was unclear.

	30-06-2004 08:41									#14
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Given that we have Mobility, Ind Base, and Social Psych to choose from, which should we choose? Going by the prior plan, it would seem that we would want to take Doctrine: Mobility. However, I would instead advocate that we take Industrial Base.

The factions are separated by large intervals, and Buster has hinted that we will likely encounter the Hive first. Based on that, I think it unlikely that we will end up getting infiltration with enough factions to make a difference before the midgame. On the other hand, Industrial Base starts us on the path to Industrial Automation, which we have a leg up on due to our starting techs. Industrial Automation will allow us to greatly boost our base outputs using crawlers. And stockpiling crawlers allows us to take Secret Projects without warning.

I've explained previously why I think the Virtual World is essential to our success, but allow me to reiterate. The Virtual World, hopefully combined with the HGP, makes Social Psych unnecessary to deal with Drone problems, and doubles the effectiveness of Rec Commons when we get them (assuming we have Network Nodes in place before that). With that project, and hopefully with the HGP, we will be able to either run +2 ECON with Green (and thereby Paradigm Economy) or pop boom with Free Market -- both via Golden Age. This will put us at a stark advantage over the other factions, who will not have the free Hologram Theatres to give them this bonus.

Enigma told me in chat today that we have a good chance of getting three early Secret Projects if we moved fast -- the three I had my eye on were the VW, the HGP, and the Planetary Energy Grid, but substitute your favorite SPs for those if you wish. The point is that not only do we start two techs closer to IA than most, but we are second in the turn order, after only the Gaians. That means we win any SP races we are neck-and-neck in with the Spartans and the Morganites.

I strongly believe that we should take an active presence in the beginning game, and aim for as many of the crucial Secret Projects as we can get. The Virtual World is key, IMO. And to get it, we need to beeline to IA. If we don't do that, given our lack of Morgan's and Dee's energy (the latter from harvested Mind Worms), we are at a significant disadvantage.

Do others agree that it's rather important for us to snag the Virtual World, and that we ought to beeline to Industrial Automation on order to do so? I don't want to step on anyone's toes, and I'm aware that there was a prior consensus. But in my mind beelining to IA, with a detour to Centauri Empathy as soon as that tech is offered, is a much stronger strategy.

Thoughts?

	30-06-2004 14:37									#15
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We'll need to choose our next tech when we get to it.
I see IA as our starting option for what you suggest there.

Crawlers and Wealth can tip the balance in the early game. I doubt we'll be able to rip off with tech before then.

Better safe than sorry - get IA now and probe what we can later.
Getting early SPs is vital to our progress.
Being boom-capable, the HGP and VW are lynchpin SPs.
The PEG is also useful for its boost to our stockpile/economy - probes cost money.

I see our beeline as going for the SP tech.
Having a tech rate that lags Dee's and Morgan's (EFFIC and ECON), our 1-tech advantage will only last so long.
I don't think we'll beat Morgan to the HGP if we cash our crawlers for the VW, so better to go for the PEG.

Then again, there's easily 15 years in it before then. We'll plan as the time comes.

Last edited by Enigma_Nova on 30-06-2004 at 14:46

	30-06-2004 14:52									#16
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Here are the beelines:

If Mod 0 is unavailable, Ecology can't be selected.
We go IB (can't select mod 0) (mod1 tech)
Then CE (csmod 2) (mod0 tech)
Then IndEcon (csmod 1) (mod0 tech)
Then IndAuto (csmod 0) (mod1 tech)

We can go straight for the PEG:
ProgPsy (csmod 2) (mod0 tech)
AdaptEcon (csmod 1) (mod0 tech)

If we detour to BioGenetics, we won't get a PEG beeline.
It is ~definately~ a gamble.
If we go Biogenetics, we have no shot at the PEG
If we go AdaptEcon, we lose our shot at the HGP
Since BioGen is one tech away, and Morgan's itching to use his crawlers (and his rushed rectanx), I reckon we'll lose that race.
Sooner go for the PEG.
At least that way we screw anyone who's trying to tech along the same beeline!

	30-06-2004 17:26									#17
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Not being able to research CentEco as first tech, I tend to be in favour of starting with IndBase IF no sea is detected in the first turn. Remember that sooner or later every faction founds coastal bases and when we have infiltrated them all, we'll get all the techs 3 other factions have...

I've got a hunch that the Hive will be on the central part of a continent, with all teams around it. If this assumption is correct, we could get problems with trying to navigate probe teams through Hive territory for reaching the other teams...

	30-06-2004 17:42									#18
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Geo: Think Strategically, not Tactically.

It's best we get a few key techs before we steal them from others. I'd sooner have IA in 2120 and -other stuff- in 2145 than have IA AND other stuff in 2135.

	30-06-2004 17:49									#19
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I don't think we'll discover sea in the first turn anyway, and about those key techs, when the teams are infiltrated, we got those immediately, Most of them will follow the same path. *shrugs*

	30-06-2004 17:53									#20
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What if one other team also follows an exotic path?
Like Gaians to CentEmp
or Sparta to Impact Rovers
or Morgan to the PEG?

I'm not willing to take that risk.

This presumes that we find them - it's a needle in a haystack in a world this size.

	31-07-2004 04:11									#21
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As we're about to start IA, we need to start thinking in here again.

I'm in favor of going ProgPsych/AdaptEcon as EN suggested to make the PEG available then perhaps FieldMod --> BioRes for beefing up our weaponry if we haven't probed/traded for something by then?

Alternatively, as soon as we get our hands on BioEng, we could head up the restriction lifitng path (BioEng --> GeneSplice --> EcoEng --> EcoEcon)

	31-07-2004 08:45									#22
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I like getting 3res armor and then going for the restriction lifting path unless it doesn't allow for some reason... that way we still have the biores path open as a secondary.

The 3res armor, this early in the game, I've found generally is quite the boon in my games.

There is the fact that after IA and the fact we'll have Doc: Flex to go for Doc: Ini and get the Maritime... and yes, I'm just a pirate at heart, but it would certainly allow for faster probe ships and a stronger sea presance. After all, if all factions are connected, via, Yang, through landbridges wouldn't it be reasonable to assume that faster contact would be by sea (and faster conquest) than by land?

Get some of those colony sea pods out early and after bio res and the restriction lifting path aim for Doc: Air... coupled with well-developed and defended sea bases we'd be a striking force for anywhere on Planet!

Say... can air units be probe units as well? Must... go... test...

	31-07-2004 12:08									#23
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No, airprobes can't be done in the vanilla version.

Hopefully Yang still wants to trade Doc:Flex with us. It would allow us to omit the research of Doc:Mob (I'm pretty sure later on when the ComNex is constructed he will want to trade Doc:Loy as well...)

	31-07-2004 12:14									#24
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Ah, one must alter the .txt to get them? I know I can get air troop ships... they only carry one unit... strange that they wouldn't allow airprobes then...

Sounds good on the Doc:Loy too. Too bad that will possibly be a Spartan priority... better for us for them to leave WP I suppose though.

	13-08-2004 04:00									#25
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I remember I wanted to make a copter probe, it did not work. colony missile did not work too. I guess missile probe will not work too....

	13-08-2004 09:16									#26
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A colony missile... now there's a really unique use of a chasis.

I can see the ads now:

quote: Come join the Colony MISSILE! Departing Enigma Machine and targetted for crash-landing on a nut tile SE of KC! Insurance not included... but fast arrival at your new home certainly is!

	13-08-2004 15:05									#27
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Yeah, the base named 'graveyard'

On topic again

People, in two turns IndAuto is ours. Where do we go from there on the research level?

	13-08-2004 16:56									#28
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well, some votes then. I thought about Doc. Mobility, but if Hive has it, then we might probe it. I think we need Doc Flex ASAP. to contact Lal and Zakharov, they may be very helpful with technologies. So I do not know - do we research mobility and then flexibility or completely rely on stealing it?

Another choices - I thought about Biogenetics - recycling tanks will give a lot of resources - they are excellent facilities.

Social Psych? for relaxation for agents after hard work in field?

	13-08-2004 17:07									#29
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Nah, there's the VW for agents relaxation.

I'm in favor for grabbing DocFlex from the Hive, but it's not like we can choose what tech to take.

You're in favor of Biogen and FF thinks of taking a beeline to FieldMod.

We'll see by next week then.

	13-08-2004 17:22									#30
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Yes, that might be good choice:

Progenitor Psych
Field Modulation (3res armor)
Adaptive Economics --> Planetary Energy Grid (IMHO a decent SP)

-------
Biogen might be obtained from Lal for Prog Psych maybe...