13-10-2004 08:03									#61
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................. and Captain Zeiter is clearly in the Gaian camp, having sent that welcoming message for them to pick up at the Embassy

Lietenant Snoddasmannen is prolly in the Morgan camp (certainly not in the Gaians!!), possibly veering towards the Hive.

It'd actually be neat to run a poll of the Junta just asking which "camp" they want to be identified with (except that we don't even know if Lt Colonel Maniac is willing to ghost the leadership of the "Gaians' camp"

(btw, he's secluded with staff officers planning the invasion of Zakland, otherwise described as "assigned temporarily to special duties"

I'll have a go at running the poll

G.

	13-10-2004 08:49									#62
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Poll's here

(Of course we'll have to be careful in what we say "in front of the Gaians" as we're maintaining the fiction that we haven't yet met Morgan)

But in the roleplaying, it's actually working out well that we didn't wait for Zeiter and Maniac to approve the gunfoil screenies. It can be regarded maybe as a bit of a "flexing of muscles" by the Morgan camp in the Junta, with a decison being taken while the Lt Colonel and the Captain were perhaps "on manoevers" prepping for the invasion

	13-10-2004 17:17									#63
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But the Lt Colonel has commlinked in from the field, demanding an explanation of what is being offered to Morgan (see link)

Stay tuned ...........................

	14-10-2004 02:51									#65
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Two leutenant colonels fits in with how ancient Sparta operated with two monarchs.

	14-10-2004 03:25									#66
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Excellent point. And they operated it pretty darn well.

	15-10-2004 06:15									#67
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Some thoughts on what constitutes "Junta Approval"

As mentioned elsewhere, the most active members seem to be (in alpha order):

Googlie
Kassiopeia
KrysiasKrusader
Maniac
Snoddasmannen
Zeiter

with less frequent postings by Primus Pilus

I haven't seen anything of Andemagne, ChairmanSlick, Dissident, Master Zen or Zero in quite a while

So I suggest that a quorum be any five of the first seven names (Googlie thru Primus Pilus), and that in any event 4 affirmative votes be needed to carry a motion (whether 4 out of 5, or 4 out of 7, depending on however many are forming the quorum)

I further suggest that either Maniac or Googlie's vote must be secured for a motion to pass (so I could be outvoted 4 - 3 (or 4 - 1) so long as Maniac was in the "4" group, and vice versa, but a 4 - 3 vote would be ruled ineligible if both Maniac and I were in the "no" camp

But to allow for the possibility of coups, if the vote is 4 (or more) - 2, with both Maniac and I forming the "2" group, then a coup will have taken place and we will ge deposed as Lieutenant Colonels

This will aloow some decisions being made in the absence of a few regulars (such as with the Morgan Observer status, or the Gaian trade embargo doublecross - thankfully now being disclosed - in part at least - to the Gaians)

Thoughts?

	15-10-2004 06:22									#68
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Interesting system. But can we be sure that those you listed as "most active" will be able to join in on a possible vote when we are tight on time? Do we allow people with specific areas of tasks (such as me in diplomacy) to have onus in their respective fields to streamline decision-making?

We could also establish that a majority of the Junta *present* within the time needed to make a decision is needed to carry a motion, if a quorum of four is not achieved. Albeit I find that unlikely, with me, Krysia and Googlie here practically full-time and a fourth one popping in often enough.

	15-10-2004 07:02									#69
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I dunno...

That will all depend on who is on-line at the time (and to a lesser extant; who can type the fastest while reloading the screens to the different threads).

I don't feel that the way we've been operating is that bad.

You have individual commanders for units already - so that's a no brainer.

Individual officers responsible for the turn being played, and interaction with the other factions.

If we had to vote on everything, we'd never get anything done, nor diplomacy (it's already slow), nor the turn being processed.

Also. there will be days when I won't be available, just like what happens to the rest of you sometimes.

Attempting to stick to a rigid system will fail. In my opinion.

From the six people you have listed, Googlie, there should be no problem for people not comming to some sort of consensus. Besides Snoddasmannen, who is relatively new to MP play, the rest of us have enough experience not to bungle things irrevocably should a major decision need be taken in a short amount of time (I hope).


Edit: I'm not talking down about Snoddasmannen. Just stating a fact. There are quite a different bunch of things in MP versus SP playing. That's all.

	15-10-2004 07:42									#70
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Hmm - these are good points you make, Kassi and KK

I was just trying to have some limited structure so as to avoid the situation of a day or so ago when Maniac opened the private forums and thought we had done an end run around him. I was trying to quantify "How many of the regulars need to be on board before a decison is deemed to have had an adequate airing"

I don't mean that we need a vote on everything ("What will this former build,....... where does the Hunter go now ..... etc") and maybe not even re those having some substance (such as "Roads versus Sensor Arrays versus farms/forests/mines" or - (a la Hunter - coast exploration versus finding the Angels versus podpopping) - there's not a great downside to making an unpopular choice if I'm the turnplayer and just get, say, one other player saying to an idea - maybe the loss of a credit or two or a missed opportunity to accelerate a mineral or energy gain.

But for the medium - to - large decisions - and till now they've mainly been in the realm of diplomacy or build orders (do we accept this trade saw-off ..... do we play 'hard to get'?" or "do we build up our garrisons, or get more colony pods on the go ... or probe defenses?) poor decisions can have major repercussions.

It's been working OK so far, as we've been pretty linear in our play, but I remember the last game - especially with the Hive as it blossomed under Kody's administration - he virtually had to become a dictator in order to get the turns out in time. Their structure called for a poll on nearly everything, and it almost fell apart under the beaurocracy.

But we can run with what we've got for now, until we really meet some roadblocks, I guess.

G.

	15-10-2004 07:56									#71
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I hear what your sayin', Googlie. And a valid point of discussion this is indeed.

I don't know how things went on different teams in past games. This is my first DG. But I look at it like a regular MP-PBEM, with all of you being the little voices in my head, when I'm playing the turn of the game (laugh!).

I invariably always forget to do (or forget about) something. Especially when I have 40+ bases and 400+ units to move around (roll eyes).

So the extra eyes and minds will help there.

What I would really like, and I think someone (besides me) has already pointed that out somewhere else; is to try and get a general overall game strategy going. Within such a framework, or guide, then we'd have something to fall back on.

Note: I reserve the right to edit this post in the next 20 minutes...


Edit: Found the diplo thread concerning this. Now looking for the game strategy thread...

Edit#2: Make that 40 minutes...

Edit #3: Foreign Office thread also bumped...

Last edited by KrysiasKrusader on 15-10-2004 at 08:32

	15-10-2004 08:41									#72
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Come to think of it Googlie...

You may as well as edit out some names on the Spartan recruitment poster, thread, whatyoumacallit in the: "For new members. The Alpha Centauri Democracy Game, an introduction" thread.

	15-10-2004 08:57									#73
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I had a go at putting my thoughts re a Strategy towards Morgan down on paper in the "Future Speculation thread"

I'll work on my thoughts about the Gaians, then the Angels (perhaps the latter needs to wait till we've met in-game and get a sense of where they're at and where they think they're going)

And you make a good point re the recruitment thread in the ACDG Public forum. I haven't visited that for some time to update it

	15-10-2004 10:42									#74
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quote: Originally posted by KrysiasKrusader From the six people you have listed, Googlie, there should be no problem for people not comming to some sort of consensus. Besides Snoddasmannen, who is relatively new to MP play, the rest of us have enough experience not to bungle things irrevocably should a major decision need be taken in a short amount of time (I hope). Edit: I'm not talking down about Snoddasmannen. Just stating a fact. There are quite a different bunch of things in MP versus SP playing. That's all.

What a shame you added that disclaimer
Oh I know I'm a newbie. If I were head of this faction, we'd be at war with everyone, but our third colony pod would be well on the way to sneak-build a base inside Hive territory, escorted by a "DethKiller"-class empath 2-2-2 rover.

	15-10-2004 10:59									#75
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quote: Originally posted by Googlie Some thoughts on what constitutes "Junta Approval" Thoughts?

I belive your system will work fine when it comes to long term decisions or at least decisions where there is plenty of time.

However, there should also be an emergency decision which can be invoked for instance by the turnplayer when he is in a hurry or by diplomats who need to agree to a deal quickly on behalf of another team. Basically, you can only call an emergency vote over that which you have authority. These might (for instance) only need the approval of one other Junta member, but the minimum decision time should be 3 hours and any Junta member can during that time veto the decision and call for a proper vote. Emergency decisions can of course be used to stage a coup, which is why I like them

	15-10-2004 17:29									#76
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Just so you know, I've only played two MP games of SMAC in my entire life, and neither of them to the end

	15-10-2004 22:03									#77
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Kapitain Krysia's Krusader may have to ammend his previous statement...


Zeiter:

Have you played multi-player PBEM's?

	15-10-2004 23:21									#78
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I could also be more or less considered a PBEM newbie. I think I can count the PBEMs I ever participated in on my two hands, and the ones I ended on one hand. Let me think...

1> 2-way game with Jeanette Matthews. Co-op Diplo victory because the game became too boring.
2> 4-way game. Co-op with Googlie IIRC.
3> Some all-pirate game. I played rather bad. The game stalled after a few years.
4> Chiron Winter II. Stalled after 40 years or so IIRC.
5 & 6> Forum Wars I: splendid victory! Forum Wars V: defeat.
7> One City game with five humans. Was second biggest power for a long time, but IIRC big_canuk beat me in the race to D:AP, so I faced an early end.
8> PBEM game with first-ACDG people. Stalled after 20 years.

That's about it AFAIK. Except the last one they're also all older than two or three years IIRC.

	16-10-2004 00:15									#79
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quote: Originally posted by Maniac 7> One City game with five humans. Was second biggest power for a long time, but IIRC big_canuk beat me in the race to D:AP, so I faced an early end.

Ah, yes. I remember that one. b_c was the PK's and that extra 1 (pre complexes) and 2 (pre domes) pops proved critical

I remember trying to nuke his sole base, but he had so many crawlers around it that the planetbuster harmlessly detonated many tiles from the base (at least I think that was the game - he learned that trick from Misotu years ago when we played the nato series which had b_c and I partnered against Tau Ceti and Misotu.)

Those were the heady days of smac'ing, were they not?

As for me, I've prolly played in 150-ish PBEMs and set up 60 - 90 or so as a CMN

	16-10-2004 03:43									#80
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I've only played 3 pbems (none of which I played all the way through to the end.)

So, I guess I could be considered a relative pbem newbie.

Man, Googlie! Those are impressive numbers!

Also, I propose that I be temporarily taken off the "most active" list, at least for a week or two. My teachers are hitting me with mountains of work, and I've got some fairly crucial tests coming up next week, so at best I'll just be able to pop in.

	16-10-2004 03:52									#81
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quote: Originally posted by Zeiter Man, Googlie! Those are impressive numbers!

A good 2 dozen, though were parallel head-to-head games (eg, 2 simultaneous games, say, with you. In one, I'm the Caretakers and you're the Usurpers, and the AI is five other factions. the parallel game (different map) has us reversed - you're the C's and I'm the U's. Or it could be The Hive and Sparta, or morgan and the Drobes, etc etc)

They are fabulous fun (and the winner is a combined game win, factoring in fastest win and longest survival in a losing cause, with a big emphasis on winning quickly and efficiently. The first couple of games, with Vel, we had aggregate AC score, but that was an invitation, if easily winning, to drag the game out past the future techs, etc etc with mega populations)

	18-10-2004 06:20									#82
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Originally posted by Zeiter
Man, Googlie! Those are impressive numbers!

You don't know this guy?
He's the one the rest of us use as a benchmark.

	22-10-2004 03:53									#83
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Following my "demotion" I've changed my rank in the Embassies to Captain, and fired myself as Recording Officer.

Someone else (Zeiter? - reinforcing that the Gaian camp is in the ascendancy right now?) should ad the tag line to their Aimoo profile:

Recording Officer to the Junta, The Spartan Federation

	23-10-2004 03:14									#84
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quote: Curator, Military Museum, Sparta Command

	02-12-2004 19:18									#85
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Ah, I didn't know until now "Crypteia" was related to ancient Sparta.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Krypteria

	17-12-2004 20:44									#86
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Hey I see we're all online. Why don't we meet in the chatroom?

	17-12-2004 23:00									#87
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quote: Originally posted by Maniac Hey I see we're all online. Why don't we meet in the chatroom?

Oops - sorry - didn't see this until just now

Pity, as we could have continued the invasion realtime like we did last turn

Ah well - better plan it next turn. (I looked at the thread when I got up this morning, and the turn was there, so I opened it to see if the base was still empty, and things just .............. you know .......... took off from there!!)

	27-12-2004 09:23									#88
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With regulars numbering five, (Googlie, Kassiopeia, Maniac, Modo and Snoddasmannen) maybe we should activate the Ephorate

quote: However, beyond the counsel, and beyond the assembly, was the Ephorate. The ephorate was a group of five men who practically guided all aspects of Spartan life. Along with ruling over the military, it held the power to veto any ruling made by the Counsel or the assembly. Regardless of how odd such a political system may seem in the twentieth century, and how opposite it may have been in comparison to the democracy of Athens, Spartan culture flourished through out the Aegean. Known almost exclusively for its military strength, and its role within the Persian Wars, the Spartans believed themselves to be of "true" Greek lineage and tradition. Their reign, extended with the aid of alliances and invasions, covered most of the pelloponesus, until the Spartans eventually rivaled Athens.

	28-12-2004 00:32									#89
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quote: Originally posted by Googlie With regulars numbering five, (Googlie, Kassiopeia, Maniac, Modo and Snoddasmannen) maybe we should activate the Ephorate

Nice observation
While I welcome being a part of the ruling elite, I'm not so sure it would send a good message to lurkers or new players who want to join the fun

	28-12-2004 00:58									#90
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Technically, we are doing just this at the moment. We can use the name as a nice roleplay, but I don't think we need to make it formal.