30-06-2004 06:37									#1
	Submarine bug Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

I've heard something about a bug with subs. Can anyone tell me what it is?

	30-06-2004 06:47									#2
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Because subs are stealth units, the AI can bump into them with ships that are on their way somewhere and inadvertently cause a war, even if they are "Gracious" towards you. Even if it's a mistake, they won't talk to you for a few turns.

	30-06-2004 11:59									#3
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Stealth or invisible?

	30-06-2004 17:09									#4
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Invisible, not Stealth. The Stealth flag only affects chance of interception on air missions.

	30-06-2004 17:39									#5
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Sorry....yes, invisible.

	30-06-2004 17:47									#6
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I've heard about this one too. There always seems to be a lot of complaints about it. Out of curiousity: Does this bug realy affect anyone's gameplay?

I personally never build subs. An 8 attack unit in the era of destroyers, cruisers and battleships is a bit on the tepid side. The AI likes to build them but my destroyers usually make short work of them before they make any impact. However, I might be missing something useful about them.

	30-06-2004 18:03									#7
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It is not only a sub bug, it is a bug with invisible units in general. Plenty of the Conquests scenarios use invisible units, like the assassin in the Middle ages. Did you ever see the Byzantines declare war on the Abbassids, because their visible units stumbled into assassins? I saw it, multiple times. AI frigates attacking privateers in ports, causing war, is another bug. Units with hidden nationalities are supposed not to cause war if destroyed. As for submarines, they definitely have a point to exist. Think not only of singleplayer, think multiplayer. And nuclear subs can bring tactical nukes into position, which are way cheaper than ICBMs.

It is a really big bug, and it's outrageous, that it isn't yet fixed.

	30-06-2004 18:20									#8
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Their stealth attack could be useful if you have a limited navy/airforce and want to take out transports. Nuclear subs too, for leanching tactical nukes. Although I admit the only time I ever launch is when I pretty much take out everything in one turn and then quit. It's more of an atmosphere thing for me.

	30-06-2004 21:45									#9
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I guess subs are useful in MP then. You can't use subs to attack AI transports because they are always escorted and attack of 8 is an almost sure loser. I guess nuclear subs are useful, however I rarely get to the point in the game where nukes are a factor.

Does anyone know if subs in AI territory contribute to WW?

	30-06-2004 23:41									#10
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quote: I guess subs are useful in MP then. You can't use subs to attack AI transports because they are always escorted and attack of 8 is an almost sure loser.

Except they have Stealth Attack, so you can attack the transport instead of the escorts.

	01-07-2004 08:07									#11
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quote: Originally posted by Sir Ralph It is not only a sub bug, it is a bug with invisible units in general. Plenty of the Conquests scenarios use invisible units, like the assassin in the Middle ages. Did you ever see the Byzantines declare war on the Abbassids, because their visible units stumbled into assassins? I saw it, multiple times. AI frigates attacking privateers in ports, causing war, is another bug. Units with hidden nationalities are supposed not to cause war if destroyed. As for submarines, they definitely have a point to exist. Think not only of singleplayer, think multiplayer. And nuclear subs can bring tactical nukes into position, which are way cheaper than ICBMs. It is a really big bug, and it's outrageous, that it isn't yet fixed.

by far one of the worst bugs to not be resolved by firaxis. Wasn't it working properly in one of the PTW iterations as well? And now that Civ is complete, our only hope is that cIV utilizes better their testers.

	01-07-2004 12:25									#12
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I have no hope for Civ4 anymore.

	01-07-2004 15:07									#13
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Do stealth bombers or fighters have stealth attack anymore? If not, when was it removed? I vividly remember being able to target stuff in cities with them, but earlier this week I finished a game and in the last great war used both types of unit extensively to eradicate the nasty Germans and their endless Panzer waves and didn't have the option to precision bomb stuff...

	02-07-2004 11:32									#14
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It's not one of the worst bugs.
Just don't use subs, and nothing is wrong

The problem is that with invisible units it should be possible to occupy with 2 different players 1 tile. (otherwise the concequence would be that the player would know where your invisible units are, since he can't move it's units to that tile)

But the 'only 1 player can occupy a tile at a time' concept is too deep into the game.
It's not possible to fix it for that reason.

cIV will be coded from scratch, that'll make sure that bugs like these will be able to be fixed.

	02-07-2004 12:28									#15
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quote: Originally posted by Sir Ralph I have no hope for Civ4 anymore.

Hey Sir Ralph:

Civ III is generally considered to be better than Civ II so why wouldn’t casa del Sid rewrite the code to make Civ IV better than Civ III?

	02-07-2004 12:30									#16
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quote: Originally posted by JereL Do stealth bombers or fighters have stealth attack anymore? If not, when was it removed? I vividly remember being able to target stuff in cities with them, but earlier this week I finished a game and in the last great war used both types of unit extensively to eradicate the nasty Germans and their endless Panzer waves and didn't have the option to precision bomb stuff...

I think you need the Smart Weapons tech to use precision bombing these days.

	02-07-2004 13:45									#17
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quote: Originally posted by Drachen Civ III is generally considered to be better than Civ II

That's true for PtW, but not for the buggy mess called Conquests.

quote: so why wouldn’t casa del Sid rewrite the code to make Civ IV better than Civ III?

Because it's the same people, who blew Conquests. I will raise my hopes for Civ4 (no, I won't call it cIV, that's a blasphemy) the day Conquests gets fixed, if this ever will happen.

	02-07-2004 13:53									#18
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quote: Originally posted by Drachen I think you need the Smart Weapons tech to use precision bombing these days.

That could be it! I didn't have anything in the 'middle' researched, just Space flight or what it's called.

	02-07-2004 14:12									#19
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Ralph obviously found out that the position for yin26 is still open for the pre-civ4 period.

	02-07-2004 14:28									#20
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It would be a honor, but I don't deserve it. Yin26 had high expectations before Civ3 came out and went berserk only after he saw what it's like. I don't have high expectations for Civ4, quite a difference, eh? I was patient and full of hope to get a decent game for so many time. In fact, had Conquests all the features it promised without returning all the bugs that had been squashed long ago, it could be the ultimate Civ game ever.

I'm not mad at the bugs. Every game has them. What I am mad at is the practically stopped support for that buggy mess. I would gladly see Civ4 been delayed for a year, if I had a decent game to play during this time. But I don't have it and the chance that I get it, gets slimmer with the time. All I sincerely wish is, that Firaxis would stand for "Makes awesome games". Instead at this time it reads like "Can't get a job done".

	02-07-2004 14:51									#21
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I'm so happy that I'm happy with c3c.
How more valuable is your life when you're happy and content with the things you have?

Just don't use subs, and there is no sub-bug.
I'm so very happy playing my games.

I really don't understand why so many of you guys are wasting your life by complaining about what you want life to be, instead of just be happy with what you are.

Man oh man oh man, what a waste of time, spending your days posting on some obscure gaming forum, just only to share that you dislike the game.

To me it's like running around in the furniture-store all day telling everybody that that particular table sucks big time

Get a life Ralph, play some other games you like.
Enjoy your life! And read the Bible more often.

That last line has nothing to do with the subject, but as a christian I can't send you home without telling you that

	02-07-2004 15:05									#22
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Sure, whatever.

	02-07-2004 20:08									#23
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quote: Originally posted by Sir Ralph Because it's the same people, who blew Conquests. I will raise my hopes for Civ4 (no, I won't call it cIV, that's a blasphemy) the day Conquests gets fixed, if this ever will happen.

Hey Sir Ralph:

I agree with you that there have been some bugs in the expansion packs that could have been avoided with a bit more time and care; although for me it’s was the PTW lag issues in multi that seemed the most indefensible. That being noted, it’s my impression that the development team is sensitive to the legitimate issues players have and wants to deliver a high quality product but must balance the effort expended with resources available within a highly competitive market. I make no claim to a detailed knowledge of the issues but am relating the impression I’ve developed after reading a number of posts from gamers and developers. If you can make the case for corporate greed or general ineptitude being the cause of the bugs then I will hear you out.

Other than that, I’m with Cybershy in thinking that the Civ glass is half full. I think C3C is a great game and I’m hoping for a Civ IV which concentrates on improving the games mechanics and interface. I don’t want a dozen new tribes and units nearly as much as I want more useful in game info readily available and a lot less clicking/scrolling to get things done. If Civ IV does something as bold as that and is the best that the team can deliver within market constraints then it’s OK with me if it’s delivered with a few bugs to be worked out.

	02-07-2004 20:12									#24
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Cybershy, I don't agree with "just don't use subs"

Subs are an interesting aspect of naval conflict. I use them in my games and yes, the sub bug happens to me all the time. Just last night my ally, the Vikings, bumped their frigate into my nuclear sub...well, that was to their detriment obviously but it did end our friendship and I was forced to take all their territory due to their stuipd navigational error.

There are some important uses for subs. The AI, and good human players, really protect their transports with several surface ships. Subs can attack the transport without engaging the surface fleet. Yes, you may lose one or two subs, but if you sink a transport with six units abord, you can signficantly dampen the AI's amphib operations. And it's fun playing with subs (when it works correctly)

I agree with those saying that Firaxis should fix this. This may not be the number one worst bug, but it's in the top five worst. Firaxis should not allow such an obvious non-functioning component to remain unrepaired.

	02-07-2004 20:43									#25
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quote: Originally posted by Shogun Gunner Cybershy, I don't agree with "just don't use subs" Subs are an interesting aspect of naval conflict. I use them in my games and yes, the sub bug happens to me all the time. Just last night my ally, the Vikings, bumped their frigate into my nuclear sub...well, that was to their detriment obviously but it did end our friendship and I was forced to take all their territory due to their stuipd navigational error. There are some important uses for subs. The AI, and good human players, really protect their transports with several surface ships. Subs can attack the transport without engaging the surface fleet. Yes, you may lose one or two subs, but if you sink a transport with six units abord, you can signficantly dampen the AI's amphib operations. And it's fun playing with subs (when it works correctly) I agree with those saying that Firaxis should fix this. This may not be the number one worst bug, but it's in the top five worst. Firaxis should not allow such an obvious non-functioning component to remain unrepaired.

Hey Shogun Gunner:

I know your post was directed at Cybershy but since I’m on the “don’t use subs for now” side of the issue I hope you won’t mind a few observations. I agree with your points about subs being an important part of a civilization simulator and I would rather have them than not, but IIRC the developers have said that the bug can’t repaired without a significant and unacceptably costly revision of the underlying code. If that’s not true then it makes no sense not to spend a few programmer hours to fix the problem and that leads me to believe that they really can’t afford to fix it. If their claim is true then why shouldn’t we just be patient while the Civ IV code is being written and make it clear that we expect the new code to take care of basic issues such as these and vote with our wallets when Civ IV is released?

	02-07-2004 22:36									#26
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quote: Originally posted by JereL Do stealth bombers or fighters have stealth attack anymore?

Stealth Attack is not the same as Precision Bombing. Yes, Precision Bombing requires Smart Weapons, and Stealth Attack is performed by Submarines.

While stealth fighter-and-bomber and F-15 have the stealth attack capabilities in the editor, only combat units perform stealth attack, bombard units do not.

	02-07-2004 23:02									#27
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Of course it would be better if the sub-bug would be fixed. But it is not fixed, and we should live by it.
I play without subs, and the game is still very entertaining.

We can morn about the sub-bug forever, and use them forever and be frustrated with that forever. What how does that serve us?

It doesn't serve is, thus I suggest: don't use subs, and I promise you that the game still will be better then all other games I've ever bought (or pirated.)

	02-07-2004 23:33									#28
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quote: Originally posted by Drachen If you can make the case for corporate greed or general ineptitude being the cause of the bugs then I will hear you out.

- Withdrawal of the whole developer staff (save one single person, who is hopelessly swamped) in favor of a new development while the just released XP is a buggy mess translates to carelessness about product quality in my books.

- Withdrawal of this one last maintainer (hopefully only temporary) in favor of the release of a "Complete" edition translates to corporate greed.

What more evidence do you need?

quote: Other than that, I’m with Cybershy in thinking that the Civ glass is half full. I think C3C is a great game and I’m hoping for a Civ IV which concentrates on improving the games mechanics and interface. I don’t want a dozen new tribes and units nearly as much as I want more useful in game info readily available and a lot less clicking/scrolling to get things done. If Civ IV does something as bold as that and is the best that the team can deliver within market constraints then it’s OK with me if it’s delivered with a few bugs to be worked out.

If you're content with a buggy game and want to play it, you have my blessing. I am, however, not.

	03-07-2004 00:14									#29
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quote: Originally posted by CyberShy Just don't use subs, and there is no sub-bug. I'm so very happy playing my games.

This is no solution. Any bug that precludes the use of a unit needs to be fixed. Personally, I prefer using it to force an AI war declaration, but it has bitten me once.

quote: And read the Bible more often. That last line has nothing to do with the subject, but as a christian I can't send you home without telling you that

The Old Testament is interesting, but I could do without the bad sequel known as the New Testament.

It's a blatant troll, but as a non-christian, I can't send you home without telling you that.

	03-07-2004 00:20									#30
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Of course its easier for them to release another sequel or a super-duper-all-in-one pack than to fix bugs, and to paraphrase a post from CFC, its easier for me to download all their games for free from IRC and Newsgroups too.