03-07-2004 00:31									#31
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quote: Originally posted by CyberShy Of course it would be better if the sub-bug would be fixed. But it is not fixed, and we should live by it. I play without subs, and the game is still very entertaining. We can morn about the sub-bug forever, and use them forever and be frustrated with that forever. What how does that serve us? It doesn't serve is, thus I suggest: don't use subs, and I promise you that the game still will be better then all other games I've ever bought (or pirated.)

so do you also reccommend that we just not play the middle ages scenario as well?

	03-07-2004 00:47									#32
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quote: Originally posted by Drachen but IIRC the developers have said that the bug can’t repaired without a significant and unacceptably costly revision of the underlying code. If that’s not true then it makes no sense not to spend a few programmer hours to fix the problem and that leads me to believe that they really can’t afford to fix it. If their claim is true then why shouldn’t we just be patient while the Civ IV code is being written and make it clear that we expect the new code to take care of basic issues such as these and vote with our wallets when Civ IV is released?

Well Drachen,

I don't disagree with the logic of your post. However, as usual, the consumer gets screwed. It's too costly in R&D money to fix it and it's too costly in gameplay to NOT fix it. The only solution is not too use the unit in question. That's a sorry conclusion.

Let's be honest, almost all of us are going to buy Civ IV (or cIV ) when it comes out. We will find ourselves in the same situation about some future issue. There's no "voting with our checkbook" as we are a captive consumer group - by our own choosing!

This is an issue of quality control and following SEI CMM software development processes. Its not just Atari/Firaxis, but all software companies. The pressure to shorten software developmental cycles and reduce budgets -- all for the bottom line -- is leading to products which are in a constant state of flux. When software is in flux, it's difficult to make changes without having negative cascading effects that are uncovered by THE USER, not the QA guy at the company.

We are forever in beta testing -- perhaps call it gamma testing since it's a bit better than beta testing.

	03-07-2004 00:54									#33
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quote: Originally posted by CyberShy Of course it would be better if the sub-bug would be fixed. But it is not fixed, and we should live by it. I play without subs, and the game is still very entertaining.

Agreed. C3C is still a great game.

quote: We can morn about the sub-bug forever, and use them forever and be frustrated with that forever. What how does that serve us?

Consumers can influence corporate behavior, but it's not easy and it takes time.

I, for one, am hoping that the Civ 4 development team is reading this so they can see the discontent with features that don't work properly. Perhaps they will take a bit more time to work on the game before release. I know I'm not the only one who thinks that there have been too many patches released - and still significant problems remain.

	03-07-2004 02:39									#34
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quote: Originally posted by Sir Ralph What more evidence do you need?

Hey Sir Ralph:

I play C3C, enjoy it, and just don’t seem to have any problems with bugs other than being a bit more careful if I do build a sub. I know, however, that you have been condemning the expansion for some time. I find your stated argument to be a bit like a list of charges read at a hearing with the expectation that the charges will be expanded upon as the hearing proceeds; an outline of a position in other words. I admit that I haven’t been following the arguments very closely and would appreciate it if you would direct me to some links where the arguments have been fleshed out so that I may acquaint myself with the details of the debate.

	03-07-2004 03:15									#35
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quote: Originally posted by Shogun Gunner Well Drachen, I don't disagree with the logic of your post. However, as usual, the consumer gets screwed. It's too costly in R&D money to fix it and it's too costly in gameplay to NOT fix it. The only solution is not too use the unit in question. That's a sorry conclusion. Let's be honest, almost all of us are going to buy Civ IV (or cIV ) when it comes out. We will find ourselves in the same situation about some future issue. There's no "voting with our checkbook" as we are a captive consumer group - by our own choosing! This is an issue of quality control and following SEI CMM software development processes. Its not just Atari/Firaxis, but all software companies. The pressure to shorten software developmental cycles and reduce budgets -- all for the bottom line -- is leading to products which are in a constant state of flux. When software is in flux, it's difficult to make changes without having negative cascading effects that are uncovered by THE USER, not the QA guy at the company. We are forever in beta testing -- perhaps call it gamma testing since it's a bit better than beta testing.

Hey Shogun Gunner:

I may just have to adopt cIV as my new Civ IV abbreviation. Thanks.

I think you’re probably right that we’re a bit of a captive audience, most of us will buy cIV if it’s even halfway decent, and that does poke a pretty big hole in the “vote with your wallet” argument as far as current fans are concerned.

I guess I’m still wondering about the greed vs. need part of the debate. Since we love the game and want to see it evolve then it doesn’t do us much good for the developers to bankrupt themselves fixing annoying bugs if they could keep afloat by preparing new editions leading to a long term path of a steadily improving Civ franchise. I just don’t know what the current state of the company is and whether or not they could afford to fix the bugs, although I do remember a lot of talk of bankruptcy being distinctly possible around the time of the PTW release.

	03-07-2004 05:28									#36
	Increase Your PM Length

quote: Originally posted by Drachen Hey Sir Ralph: I play C3C, enjoy it, and just don’t seem to have any problems with bugs other than being a bit more careful if I do build a sub. I know, however, that you have been condemning the expansion for some time. I find your stated argument to be a bit like a list of charges read at a hearing with the expectation that the charges will be expanded upon as the hearing proceeds; an outline of a position in other words. I admit that I haven’t been following the arguments very closely and would appreciate it if you would direct me to some links where the arguments have been fleshed out so that I may acquaint myself with the details of the debate.

Subs are only a poster child. The list of Conquests bugs is long. At risk to sound like a broken record, take armies (AI doesn't build them and so their improved stats are wasted unless the human builds them anyway = cheats), barbarians (who were a nuisance in PtW and a pushover in Conquests), AI city placement and AI terrain improvement as example. I'm sure you'll find much more when you browse the forums. I'm really tired to discuss this matter.

Once and forever: Who wants to play, should do it. I don't want to spoil anybody's fun. If somebody is content with mediocricy, more power to him. But nobody will change my mind. I'd rather see Civ4 delayed five years, if I had a decent game to play meanwhile.

Ah well, I have one, but it's not from Firaxis. Neither from Activision.

	03-07-2004 05:56									#37
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Yes, Sir Ralph is right. Subs are just one problem. I would have done without extra tribes made available in C3C to have working subs.

As you say Drachen, we don't know how much time, effort and money it would take to fix these problems -- apparently it's too much. And yes, I do remember talk about the financial viability of Firaxis being an issue a year or two ago.

Well, I do try to keep things in perspective. Remember how killing one unit in Civ 2 would destroy the whole stack? In Civ1, there were even worse bugs (far too long for me to remember specifics). Over time the franchise is improving. Let's hope cIV is a revolutionary step forward like Civ2 was from Civ1.

	03-07-2004 10:43									#38
	Increase Your PM Length

quote: Originally posted by Shogun Gunner Yes, Sir Ralph is right. Subs are just one problem. I would have done without extra tribes made available in C3C to have working subs. As you say Drachen, we don't know how much time, effort and money it would take to fix these problems -- apparently it's too much. And yes, I do remember talk about the financial viability of Firaxis being an issue a year or two ago. Well, I do try to keep things in perspective. Remember how killing one unit in Civ 2 would destroy the whole stack? In Civ1, there were even worse bugs (far too long for me to remember specifics). Over time the franchise is improving. Let's hope cIV is a revolutionary step forward like Civ2 was from Civ1.

Ahhh Shogun:

You’ve an advantage on me my friend as I’ve only been on board since Civ III. But, I’m always open to history and you’ve got the Mike…

	03-07-2004 19:55									#39
	Full PM-box? Change here!

quote: Originally posted by Sir Ralph If somebody is content with mediocricy, more power to him. But nobody will change my mind.

Hey Sir Ralph:

I'm afraid I'm not persuaded but thanks for taking the time to flesh out your argument a bit.

quote: Originally posted by Sir Ralph I'd rather see Civ4 delayed five years, if I had a decent game to play meanwhile. Ah well, I have one, but it's not from Firaxis. Neither from Activision.

OK...I'll bite. What is it?

	03-07-2004 20:02									#40
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I'm thinking its MoO3.

	03-07-2004 20:12									#41
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quote: Originally posted by asleepathewheel I'm thinking its MoO3.

I would have thought Total War if he hadn't nixed Activision. We'll see.

	03-07-2004 21:13									#42
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quote: ... a decent game to play meanwhile.

If it's a TBS, I also would be interested! Rise of Nations got stale quickly for me.

With C3C, I make many modifications to get around most of my perceived problems with the game (sub bug not included ). No artillery units, higher infantry attack strengths, no building of armies (produced every x turns instead), too many others.

	04-07-2004 13:59									#43
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quote: Originally posted by Jaybe quote: ... a decent game to play meanwhile. If it's a TBS, I also would be interested!

Unfortunately, it is not. Both strategy and role playing games are my favorites, and the games I play at the moment are from the other kind.

About RoN: I really thank BHG for releasing a Demo version. It prevented me from buying yet one more game I'm not playing.

	04-07-2004 14:04									#44
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quote: Originally posted by Drachen I'm afraid I'm not persuaded but thanks for taking the time to flesh out your argument a bit.

As I said, I'm not interested to persuade anyone. If you like the game, more power to you. All I ask you is the same favor, not to question my opinion, because you won't change my mind either.

	04-07-2004 19:14									#45
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quote: Originally posted by Sir Ralph All I ask you is the same favor, not to question my opinion, because you won't change my mind either.

Sounds fair to me Sir Ralph.

I wish you great success with the games you enjoy.

Cheers

	10-07-2004 19:31									#46
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Solitaire?

( )

	11-07-2004 17:12									#47
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For those persons interested in the sub bug, I tried an experiment this morning.

Utilizing the editor, I added an additional ability to the submarine types. I turned on "Hidden Nationality" and VOILA, no war declarations. Note: You have to be careful and hold down the (Ctrl) key while adding the new ability or you will turn off all the original abilities such as invisibiliy, etc. Also, the original (conquests.biq for Conquests games) and (Civ3X.bix for PTW games) are Read-Only files so you may have to make backups/rename and then remove the Read-Only attribute before being able to save the changes.

Now, you have to think of the ramifications. These subs will be particularly lethal, in that they will be able to attack or be attacked without starting a war, not unlike what went on for years during the cold war. Also, they will become an awesome blockade tool, probably requiring so called house rules in multiplayer games.

I would probably have the preferences "Show Enemy Moves" and possibly "Animate Enemy Moves", in order to maybe catch a glimpse of the offending nation'c color during the actual combat. At least then, a possible form of retribution or countermeasures might be taken.

The added possiblities are endless. No wonder everyone wants the submarines to work correctly.

Last edited by Gray_Lensman on 11-07-2004 at 17:30

	13-07-2004 20:48									#48
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Bravo Gray_Lensman! I think adding Hidden Nationality to subs is just the ticket. Old subs tended to attack at night anyway. You never knew what or who hit you. Even during the day they would immediately submerge once a surface contact was sighted. Modern subs of course are hard to detect at all, let alone determine their nationality. In any case, it looks like this fixes the problem with minimum game balance issues.

	14-07-2004 00:53									#49
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quote: Originally posted by Gray_Lensman Utilizing the editor, I added an additional ability to the submarine types. I turned on "Hidden Nationality" and VOILA, no war declarations. Note: You have to be careful and hold down the (Ctrl) key while adding the new ability or you will turn off all the original abilities such as invisibiliy, etc. Also, the original (conquests.biq for Conquests games) and (Civ3X.bix for PTW games) are Read-Only files so you may have to make backups/rename and then remove the Read-Only attribute before being able to save the changes.

I keep my conquests.biq and other basic stuff vanilla (just to have a baseline to work off of)... and save any modifications I make as a scenario.

I think this is an awesome idea BTW... gonna try it.

	14-07-2004 19:45									#50
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quote: Originally posted by Gray_Lensman For those persons interested in the sub bug, I tried an experiment this morning. Utilizing the editor, I added an additional ability to the submarine types. I turned on "Hidden Nationality" and VOILA, no war declarations.

Great suggestion. I'm going to try it.

quote: Now, you have to think of the ramifications. These subs will be particularly lethal, in that they will be able to attack or be attacked without starting a war, not unlike what went on for years during the cold war. Also, they will become an awesome blockade tool, probably requiring so called house rules in The added possiblities are endless. No wonder everyone wants the submarines to work correctly.

I don't mind sub warfare not causing a declaration of war. I can live with that. I wonder however, how this will affect the AIs perception of the unit and will this change AI strategy?

	17-07-2004 23:16									#51
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Yes it affects gameplay. This really messed up one game I had so badly I had to reload the turn before and move the sub (a Gracious superpower declared war on me)...

	17-07-2004 23:35									#52
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quote: Originally posted by Raleigh Yes it affects gameplay. This really messed up one game I had so badly I had to reload the turn before and move the sub (a Gracious superpower declared war on me)...

By your complaint, I seem to understand that the original settings for the subs is what affected your gameplay, not the new ability we are talking about in the thread.

	27-07-2004 00:44									#53
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If I can drop $100 on this game (40 for civ3, 30 for PTW and 30 for conquests), i think they can fix almost all of the problems, especially since most problems i'm sure have been brought to their attention soon after the initial release.

*sigh* this is a reason why games are pirated

	27-07-2004 19:21									#54
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This Sub bug has some advantages.. You can get a Civ to go to war with you, by letting them run over and attacking one of your subs. This is useful against civs you have peace or other treaties , meaning you won't get 'diplomatic' reputation penalties. I think its better than you declaring war first, as you get reputation problems for declaring wars i believe, the only thing is you won't be able to get a surprise attack in first.. you'll have to defend their forces for a while.. tho it depends if they have any forces with movement after they hit your sub.

This makes up for the bad effects, though it would be better if it was fixed.. it unbalances the game slightly.

I assume this happens with invisible land units too..

	27-07-2004 19:35									#55
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Perhaps this bug could be fixed by having a Hide command (or Submerge) which takes a whole turn to make the unit invisible.
The Hide command can be used again to make the unit visible.. so your allies can see your position and not run you down, but it also helps them know what your doing. Perhaps seeing your subs would scare off enemy ships too.
You could use the Fortify command key to do the Hide action.. its a similar command, and I don't really see how a submarine can fortify anyhow unless its in a subpen.

When a unit is unhidden it could move faster, and see further (inthe case of submarines, special forces units wouldn't get much recce bonus possibly ) because the sub can take in more air for its engines, and has less water resistance.. though i'm not certain how this works in reallife.

Another way to fix the sub bug, would be to give all ships Detect sub ability, maybe not including older ships. The subs would still be useful for scouting out enemy coastlines, where there weren't any ships to detect them.

	28-07-2004 01:02									#56
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There is no sense in making suggestions as to how to fix the sub bug. All you can do is either live with it or edit the Hidden Identity Ability. see the following thread, same goes with AI use of Armies. Basically C3C is AbandonWare http://apolyton.net/forums/showthre...threadid=117394

	28-07-2004 02:02									#57
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Wasn't there a problem in the first version of CIV3, it didn't have the "This will mean war with the X people", when YOU tried to go to a spot occupied by enemy sub, it just declared war? Was it the same for AI's surface units/you subs? And if so, was it fixed?