30-06-2004 16:56									#1
	Bill O'Reilly sez you're unpatriotic if... Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

You think the US is a terrorist country...

Aside from the question as to whether or not it is and assuming O'Reilly thinks patriotism is good, I have a couple questions:

1) Does this mean the Afghans, Iraqis and Germans who supported the Taliban, Saddam and Hitler were patriots?

2) If so, doesn't this make O'Reilly's definition ridiculous from a moral point of view?

Now as to whether or not the US is a terrorist nation, one man's freedom fighter is often another man's terrorist. For example, Reagan supported the Contras and even compared them with the Founding Fathers calling them "freedom fighters". But my knowledge of the Contras, albeit somewhat limited, leads me to believe they were in fact terrorists. They avoided direct battles with the Sandanistas instead opting for guerilla warfare which primarily involved attacking defenseless villages killing farmers, teachers, health care providers, etc... The result of ~8 years of this was to pressure the general populace into voting for a government that found some favor with the Contras in 1988 as opposed to the Ortegas and Sandanistas.

The irony is that while many in the GOP claim the Nicaraguan election in 1988 was "free", it was in fact a coerced vote - continue supporting the Sandanistas and face more terrorism or support the Sandinastas' opposition and bring it to an end. Who were the Contras if not the ruling elite, police and military under the previous dictators - the Somozas? Furthermore, US support for the Contras had a similar effect to what happened in Spain's election just after the Madrid bombings. A campaign of terror brought about a regime change... This seems to have been a common tactic of US foreign policy during the cold war...

Democrats and Republicans, on you

	30-06-2004 17:01									#2
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quote: Originally posted by Berzerker You think the US is a terrorist country...

'

Well, duh. Loving your country is pretty much a requirement for patriotism...

	30-06-2004 17:15									#3
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But how can patriotism be moral if loving terrorism is a requirement when we are the terrorists?

	30-06-2004 17:16									#4
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Relativity

	30-06-2004 17:21									#5
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quote: Originally posted by Berzerker Now as to whether or not the US is a terrorist nation, one man's freedom fighter is often another man's terrorist.

This is one of the more vomit worthy statements I've seen uttered by so many people.

	30-06-2004 17:24									#6
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Or put another way, if we are to assume that patriotism is moral (as O'Reilly does), how can one be a patriot if their government supports terrorism? You can love your child even if they do something immoral, but according to O'Reilly's definition, the parent in that scenario cannot believe their child did something immoral.

	30-06-2004 17:35									#7
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quote: This is one of the more vomit worthy statements I've seen uttered by so many people.

I agree, either they are terrorists or they are freedom fighters. But that leaves us with a problem - our terrorists are freedom fighters and the terrorists we don't like are...terrorists... How else can you get people like Reagan calling the Contras "freedom fighters" when they empoyed terrorist tactics?

	30-06-2004 17:40									#8
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Another example, undoubtedly O'Reilly would condemn Jim Crow laws and the KKK's terrorist tactics in enforcing many of those laws. Problem: how does he claim to be a patriot when he recognises and despises the terrorism employed to enforce the government's laws?

	30-06-2004 18:21									#9
	Re: Re: Bill O'Reilly sez you're unpatriotic if... Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc This is one of the more vomit worthy statements I've seen uttered by so many people.

Well, I know how unpalpatable you find the truth to be, but heck- we can always use the Reagan as an example- his backing of Jonas Sabimvi in Angola- Reagan called his a great freedom fighter. Interms of behavior, he is indistinguisable from plenty of terrorist orgs. Oh, him and the Contras as well- they commited terrorism acts and bombings.

	30-06-2004 18:36									#10
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How is this an issue? Of course you can't be considered patriotic if you think your country is a terrorist state. DUH!

	30-06-2004 18:37									#11
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What do you call a terrorist who employ freedom fighter tactics?

	30-06-2004 18:54									#12
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui How is this an issue? Of course you can't be considered patriotic if you think your country is a terrorist state. DUH!

There I have to agree with Imran- the label of "terrorist" is inhrently pejorative. If you think the US is a terrorist state you can;t really be labelled patriotic. If you think we have a terrorist administration, well, that is different.

	30-06-2004 19:04									#13
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quote: Originally posted by GePap Well, I know how unpalpatable you find the truth to be,

I'll tell you if that's the case if and when I find it in this thread. Personally, I tend to believe that those who deliberately kill innocent civilians aren't particularly interested freedom and those who trample on human rights aren't the best people to try defending them. The choice of means indicates that they are forerunners of tyranny.

	30-06-2004 19:06									#14
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quote: If you think we have a terrorist administration, well, that is different.

That's true. I guess it depends on what the speaker means, which sometimes can be difficult to discern in things like this.

	30-06-2004 19:07									#15
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I think the bigger question is why does Berz have such a bug up his ass about Bill O'Reilly?

	30-06-2004 19:08									#16
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc --- Personally, I tend to believe that those who deliberately kill innocent civilians aren't particularly interested freedom and those who trample on human rights aren't the best people to try defending them. The choice of means indicates that they are forerunners of tyranny.

Don't tell me the US did nothing of this in Iraq?

	30-06-2004 19:09									#17
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quote: Originally posted by Kontiki I think the bigger question is why does Berz have such a bug up his ass about Bill O'Reilly?

He refuses to put his letters on the air.

	30-06-2004 19:11									#18
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc I'll tell you if that's the case if and when I find it in this thread. Personally, I tend to believe that those who deliberately kill innocent civilians aren't particularly interested freedom and those who trample on human rights aren't the best people to try defending them. The choice of means indicates that they are forerunners of tyranny.

Hey, you mean like the US and UK between 1942 and 1945, when we killed well over 1 million innocent civilians deliberately?

Killing civilians deliberately is not the definiton of terrorism.

	30-06-2004 19:17									#19
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Of course it is. Killing civilians to serve political goals is the very essence of terrorism. I know how you find the truth to be unpleasent though.

	30-06-2004 19:20									#20
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Would you consider Hiroshima to be terrorism, DD? It was killing civilians deliberately to serve the political goal of ending WW2.

	30-06-2004 19:23									#21
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Hiroshima is definitely an example of terrorism.

	30-06-2004 19:24									#22
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The answer is plainly, "no".

There is no logical barrier that says that you cannot love your country and despise what it does or has done. You may want to make it better.

The US has been one of the world's worst terrorist states. Its activities in Latin America are more than enough to condemn it in this regard. But that is just government sponsored terrorism: everyone knows that US citizens bankrolled Irish terrorists while their government did nothing about it.

	30-06-2004 19:26									#23
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui Would you consider Hiroshima to be terrorism, DD?

Doolittle's raid is a more clear cut case in my mind if you want to focus on the Pacific theater.

	30-06-2004 19:29									#24
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But I'm focusing on Hiroshima. It was known that many many many more civilians would have died that military objectives succeeded. The whole point of it was to scare the Japanese into surrender.

	30-06-2004 19:39									#25
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc Of course it is. Killing civilians to serve political goals is the very essence of terrorism. I know how you find the truth to be unpleasent though.

No it is not. Blowing up a police station is not killing innocent civlians, yet counts as terrorism. Assasinating politicians is terrorism as well. Of course, that would also count as legitimate liberation tactics in a guerilla war. That is the problem.

	30-06-2004 20:32									#26
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I like the definition provided in the Rainbow 6 manual for terrorism.

	30-06-2004 21:17									#27
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And that would be?

	30-06-2004 21:50									#28
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On any reasonable definition of terrorism – i.e. one that does not include "done by people we don't like" in the definition – the United States has been guilty of engaging in and supporting terrorism.

There simply isn't any reasonable dispute about it, so it strikes me as odd that O'Reilly should think that patriotism necessarily requires commitment to an obviously false belief.

	30-06-2004 21:59									#29
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui But I'm focusing on Hiroshima. It was known that many many many more civilians would have died that military objectives succeeded. The whole point of it was to scare the Japanese into surrender.

My view is that the point was to scare the USSR. Japan was already beat. If my view is correct dropping the A bombs on Japanese would be even more clearly terrorism.

	30-06-2004 22:02									#30
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quote: Originally posted by GePap Hey, you mean like the US and UK between 1942 and 1945, when we killed well over 1 million innocent civilians deliberately? Killing civilians deliberately is not the definiton of terrorism.

You mean like that time frame when technology was way ahead of international law and the laws and customs of war, so that killing of civilians could be done on an unprecedented scale?

I wonder if the reaction to that had anything to do with all those different treaties and conventions on international law and the conduct of war that arose after WW2?