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MichaeltheGreat
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Apolyton Grand Executioner
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mooning the house that Ruth built.
Oct 1999
time: 21:37
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quote:
Originally posted by Ramo
quote:
So in other words, if any civilian happens to get hurt, or if the military enemy you're attacking hides behind civilians, then to attack is to commit an act of terrorism. Lions and Tigers and Bears, oh my! |
I didn't say that. There's a difference between making a real effort to avoid civilian casualties and making indiscriminate attacks. And nuking a city certainly is an indiscriminate attack. |
Not at all, by the technological standards of the time. B29 bombers typically carried loads from 6,000 to 14,000 lbs. The first B29 raid against Yawata (from B29s which flew from bases in India and refueled in China) resulted in precisely one bomb on target, and half the initial aircraft failing to make the target area due to various problems including enemy action.
LeMay's incendiary raids were conducted against initially against aircraft engine plants, then against other heavy industrial centers, but the effects of incendiaries weren't controllable. These raids involved several hundred B29s, and were the only accurate means of hitting Japanese industry. Civilian deaths were simply inevitable, unless you decided that a better approach was to let Japanese war industry continue unimpeded, so you could kill more Japanese civilians (and soldiers, and US soldiers and Marines) with a later invasion.
The technology of the time didn't allow for precision bombing, so you had precisely three alternatives: End the war as rapidly and decisively as possible, let the Japanese military continue running the country and waging war indefinitely, or dick around until the invasion of the home islands was even more costly to both sides that it would otherwise have been.
There was no "indescriminate" bombing - bombers and ordnance were expensive, in limited supply, prone to loss, and the logistics and air traffic managment issues of using them meant that they would be used against important targets of military significance.
But you can continue to define terrorism as any action by the US which you don't like. 
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GePap
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of the Big Apple
Nov 2001
time: 23:37
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quote:
Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
Actually I think patriotism requires a devotion to the government. I think it is much more than simply loving your country's populace and culture. I believe it involves loving the governing apparatus. Yes, you may hate an administration or two, but when you start to hate a majority of them, I think that can't be called patriotism.
I think a simple love for county and its cultures is more nationalism, since 'nation' stands for the people, while 'country' includes the government. |
Nope. Patriotism is loving your Fatherland, which is the one political unit, or country as you said.
Nationalism is support for your nation. The difference is that nation=/country. For example, back in 1915 you might have an Ottoman patriot, or a Turkish Nationalist. One support his country, the Ottoman state, a multinational empire. The other guy wants to see political rule by the Turkish Nation, as opposed to the Arabs, Jews, Kurds, Armenians, Greeks, whatever.
That people equate Nation and State is the great victory of nationalists. Can a black American be a nationalist? After all, is there such a thing as an american nation? (as in a group linked by common cultural and biological heritage?) BUt certainly one could be a patriot.
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Kontiki
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Canada
Aug 2001
time: 00:37
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quote:
Originally posted by Berzerker
Kontiki -
I watch O'Reilly and I've criticised Sean Hannity too, but I don't listen to Limbaugh. Why does my motive intrigue you rather than the logic or illogic in what he said? I've already answered your question...
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I don't really care that much, just curious. I've seen you start several threads about O'Reilly so it seems to me that he in particular gets under your skin. And the reason why what he said doesn't intrigue me is that as a default I assume anything coming out of someone like O'Reilly is worthless crap. It's no mystery where his views lie, so random comments that support that position don't strike me as noteworthy. But it's almost like you're surprised O'Reilly would say something like this.
Put another way, I think Jerry Falwell is a worthless sack of sh*t too. So I don't watch him and I don't expend any energy shooting down random comments he makes. I'm guessing you probably feel the same way about him too, and I haven't seen any threads from you about him.
In any event, I'm not looking to get into a debate with you about this. Like I said, it just seems that O'Reilly in particular gets you worked up, while the loads of other hypocritical uber-right-wing commentators go largely unmentioned.
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Kuciwalker
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of Schmooism
Feb 2001
time: 00:37
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quote:
Originally posted by David Floyd
MtG,
So what you are saying, then, is that if the US failed to drop the atomic bomb, and if the Japanese government decided to continue the war and as a consequence, millions of Japanese civilians would have died of starvation, this would be the fault or responsibility of the US?
That's preposterous - the US would have been responsible for it's decision not to drop the A-bomb, and the Japanese government would have been responsible for any decision to continue the war. Put another way, both the US and Japanese governments had a moral responsibility not to intentionally target civilians - I think everyone can agree on that. My point is simply that the actions of one side don't force the other side to act immorally - if the US chose not to drop the atomic bomb, that wouldn't have forced Japan to continue the war and starve to death. That would have been a conscious decision on the part of the Japanese government. |
Doesn't make it wrong for us to drop the A-bomb, though, because causally we prevented those deaths.
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01-07-2004 17:00
re Agathon
the KKK isn't the United States government, dumbass. Hell, the FBI prosecuted them!
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